D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Jaeger]

Actually that's that not the problem. HP is fine.

Here's the thing, if you look at the damage of a 1st level spell and a 9th level spell...

Then look at the number of attacks a 1st level fighter and a 20th level fighter.

The 20th level fighter has too few attacks.

The 20th level fighter should have 6-10 attacks BASE with over 15 attacks with action Surge.

THAT'S the problem.

If the fighter progressed in combat like how the wizard progressed in magic effect, it would be the most annoying and unbearable class with its thirty minute turns attack fifteen times and moving hundreds of feet.

That's horrid LOL!

HP bloat is not fine, your extrapolation proves that the game will make itself completely unwieldly if you progress all the classes in the same way as Wizards!

A Prime example of different strokes for different folks!

I find D&D above 7th level to be a bit OP all the way around already, If I want to deal with stuff like that I'll play 1st edition Exalted!

E6 was clearly the best version of D&D never made...

 

[Maxperson]

Which was basically my point.

If you have an associated object there's no chance of failure. It's not exactly difficult to get an associated object from a location you've been to. As long as you remember to teleport back before 6 months is up, you can easily just get another object to replace an "old" one during downtime.

That works to get you far away from where you are with a long trip back to where you probably needed to be. It's something to be done in extreme circumstances only.

 

[nevin]

Honestly what is the point if the party totally scrap the adventuring day prepared by the DM and smash down the final boss?
There will be a harder adventure ahead and so on until ever after.

because some of us roleplay and our characters don'e know it'll never end. We act as if we only know what we've been told.

 

[Krachek]

because some of us roleplay and our characters don'e know it'll never end. We act as if we only know what we've been told.

Then your character rejoice with this easy victory that prove your plans were clever and your power unmatched!

 

[nevin]

That's horrid LOL!

HP bloat is not fine, your extrapolation proves that the game will make itself completely unwieldly if you progress all the classes in the same way as Wizards!

A Prime example of different strokes for different folks!

I find D&D above 7th level to be a bit OP all the way around already, If I want to deal with stuff like that I'll play 1st edition Exalted!

E6 was clearly the best version of D&D never made...

lol. I went through 1st edition awhile back after another similar thread to this and realized to my surprise 1st edition was probably the best balanced edition. It's not that wizards weren't powerful it's just that there were many mechanics to deal with it. Paladins
Holy swords dispelled magic. as cheesy as assasains were one percentile roll could kill a mage, any hit, knock down or effect that caught or restrained the mage in any way before they got off thier spell resulted in a loss of the spell. Initiative rules were brutal it was possible for an enemy to get multiple full round attacks . Every edition since took out all the harsh disparities making mages and clerics progressively more powerful. till 4e which just rolled back things a little then 5e opened it up with none of the originial restrictions. I do think 1e is probably the best high level version of D&S

 

[Yaarel]

E6 was clearly the best version of D&D never made...

Going epic instead of class level 6, is solution by tier. Each tier has a different level of power.

Proficiency Tier: Name and levels
Proficiency +2: Apprentice levels 1 thru 4
Proficiency +3: Adventurer levels 5 thru 8
Proficiency +4: Master levels 9 thru 12
Proficiency +5: "Archon" (Arch, Leader, Noble, Great) levels 13 thru 16
Proficiency +6: Legend levels 17 thru 20

So, E6 is the same thing as ending advancement after the characters "graduate" from their apprenticeship. To some degree, the game ends.



Similarly, I feel the Fighter class forces the D&D game to end the game too early, and is holding the rest of D&D game back.

From the perspective of character optimization, the Fighter class caps at level 11 or 12. By the end of this master tier, all significant choices of Fighter features and feats have already happened. The tiers beyond level 12 offer little appeal except for level 20 itself.

The reason the Fighter class shuts down by level 12 is because of a flavor requirement to keep the Fighter class "mundane". In other words, being powerful becomes the "wrong flavor".

Whether intentionally or unintentionally, many Fighter fans seems to want the D&D game to shut down at level 12. Or even sooner at level 5!

This desire to sabotage the game is so unfair to the other D&D players who want to keep on playing D&D, and to continue to advance the power of their character into even higher levels.

 

[Krachek]

So why people aren’t playing all wizard party?

 

[Yaarel]

So why people aren’t playing all wizard party?

Heh, because an all-Wizard party would TPK pretty much immediately. People exaggerate how powerful the Wizard is.

 

[Umbran]

IMO, your whole "which is it?" question is a fundamentally misguided attempt to restrict the scope of the conversation. It misses the forest for the trees.

Mod Note:

So, I just read through some of this discussion. It does seem to me that he tried to talk more broadly a little bit ago, and got accused by you of moving goal posts. And now he's "misguided" in trying to narrow the focus. Darned if he does, and darned if he doesn't, with you, huh?

Maybe, just maybe, the issue here isn't just his points. Maybe your rhetorical maneuverings here are part of the problem. Much more of that, and folks may get the idea that you aren't really interested in interchange of ideas, or understanding other people's viewpoints, and are more interested in countering ideas. That latter isn't really constructive.

Leave room for folks who disagree with you to make points, please.

 

[Oofta]

Going epic instead of class level 6, is solution by tier. Each tier has a different level of power.

Proficiency Tier: Name and levels
Proficiency +2: Apprentice levels 1 thru 4
Proficiency +3: Adventurer levels 5 thru 8
Proficiency +4: Master levels 9 thru 12
Proficiency +5: "Archon" (Arch, Leader, Noble, Great) levels 13 thru 16
Proficiency +6: Legend levels 17 thru 20

So, E6 is the same thing as ending advancement after the characters "graduate" from their apprenticeship. To some degree, the game ends.



Similarly, I feel the Fighter class forces the D&D game to end the game too early, and is holding the rest of D&D game back.

From the perspective of character optimization, the Fighter class caps at level 11 or 12. By the end of this master tier, all significant choices of Fighter features and feats have already happened. The tiers beyond level 12 offer little appeal except for level 20 itself.

The reason the Fighter class shuts down by level 12 is because of a flavor requirement to keep the Fighter class "mundane". In other words, being powerful becomes the "wrong flavor".

Whether intentionally or unintentionally, many Fighter fans seems to want the D&D game to shut down at level 12. Or even sooner at level 5!

This desire to sabotage the game is so unfair to the other D&D players who want to keep on playing D&D, and to continue to advance the power of their character into even higher levels.

I don't know, I had fun playing a fighter up to 20. Of course we play with feats so that may be part of it. Lucky was pretty awesome once I got around to taking it.

But the point is that I thought my fighter was fun for his entire career. Sometimes he probably pulled ahead in damage, sometimes he fell behind. He was almost always the best tank. But we also had magic items and feats that made it felt like he was still growing. That, and as much fun as shiny new spells are when I run a caster, I get more invested in the character than the mechanics.