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D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Frankly, then so be it. This simply isn't a solvable issue otherwise.
In any case, someone won't be happy of course, but not ME! ;)

You can make it optional, because you cannot balance the lack of it.
Huh? Do you mean "can't"???

And sure I can. If I already think (power-wise) that fighters don't have an issue, then the option is just for the people who DO think there is a problem. 🤷‍♂️
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Yep. No class is entitled to specific items and abilities, and the fighter doesn't need it. Looking the creatures in the CR 11 range in the MM, none of them can attack while out of range of a fighter with a long bow. It has a range of 150 feet, just like the Horned Devil attack. If it can hit the fighter, the fighter can hit it. Your example isn't even a proper example.

So the Horned Devil flies up 150 feet. It then uses a single attack on 1 PC with +7 to hit and 4d6 damage. The fighter then returns fire with, assuming a 14 dex, +6 to hit. He fires the bow 3 times and can action surge for another 3 if he wants. Even with 3 attacks, the fighter with his combat abilities and such is at the very least equaling the devil in damage output. Even if the devil tries using movement to fly into range and then back up out of range, the fighter just readies his attack for when the devil flies into range.

No magic items needed.
What is stopping the Horned Devil from using its flight to move into range (partial move), attack, and move back out again (partial move) before the Fighter can shoot back; all as its turn action?

Lather-rinse-repeat this a few times and you ain't got no Fighter left... :)
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Take Iron Man's suit away from Tony Stark and how does he rate compared to Dr. Strange then?

Yes, handsome, smart, playboy billionaire stuff, but still mundane.
 


On a less tongue in cheek note, there's that use of the word "mundane" again. I hate that mundane gets applied to non caster PCs. They are not "mundane" they simply have a different focus. Especially in a game where everyone starts at the same level (often 1st) and then journeys from there. The D&D zero to hero journey applies to martials AND casters not just martials.
I'm using the word accurately, given the context. You're thinking of it as a synonym for "banal;" I'm using it as an antonym to "supernatural." And that's the first and last time I speak on that here. I'm not getting dragged into a definition war again. Of course if you're saying that pure martial classes like the fighter should be supernatural, then I guess I just disagree with that completely.

You are missing the core problem. The Fighter's 'thing' is 'Attack for damage and nothing else' and 'Attack perhaps a second time for damage and nothing else'.
And there's room to improve on that without making them supernatural. Most people here that are against making fighters go demi-god as a matter of course aren't against improvements. It's just that many of us think that there's only so far you can push pure martial classes before they stop being purely martial (and we think that would be bad).

But personally, I think there's plenty that can be done while keeping the source of improvements skill based rather than raw power based. But a lot of it depends on fixing the underlying math so that depleting HP isn't frequently the most efficient action. You could also use rider effects to add different actions on top of your attack, save-or-die actions, and so on.

The key to making it work for people who don't want superhero martials is to frame both the narrative and the mechanics in a way that is clearly not magic. For instance, using D&D spell economy for martial actions is a dealbreaker for me. But you have to have some limiting factor or you have to limit the strength of the abilities. So maybe give a lot of potential actions, but give them diminishing returns with repeated use within a fight. Less effect or harder to pull off each time because once the enemy sees it, they're more likely to counter it the next time. You could even say that only happens with opponents of at least human levels of intelligence, letting martial characters really shine against opponents that can't use complex tactics. Then you give them an ever expanding toolkit as they level, meaning that they never really run out tricks; they just have to change things up and decide when best to use what ability.

And then, again, I'm also for lowering the "magic" ceiling so that it doesn't take quite so much to get magic and martial to find a middle ground. Mostly by treating powerful magic the same way we treat powerful magic items.
 





BrokenTwin

Biological Disaster
D&D 5E is just not the game to play if you want to play gritty low-power characters and advance at the same time. If I want to play a game where I'm just a regular guy with nothing more than his wits and the metal strapped to his body to protect him again monsters, there's other systems that handle that style of play SIGNIFICANTLY better than current edition D&D. It's rare that I see a 5E group with a character that possesses zero spellcasting, and almost non-existent ones where the non-casters outnumber the casters.

Current fighters are arguably the only class that can still conceivably be called "normal guys" past... third, maybe fifth level? You could argue the rogue, I guess. I'm still annoyed that the martial dice died in the playtest. Battlemaster is a shadow of that concept.

As to these fighters shooting the flying monsters... better hope you're not a Strength build... or want to do literally anything other than make a plain attack roll.
 

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