D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Mort]

Arguably there is never an imbalance.

The Fighter falls behind the Wizard shenanigans around the same level that the Wizard falls behind the Fighter damage dealing.

Even at high levels, the game tends to need both Fighter damage and Wizard shenanigan.

This is addressing exactly 1 pillar of play: combat. Admittedly, it is, by far, the biggest in most campaigns. And yes, I'd argue that little to no tweaking is needed in the combat pillar.

But what about the exploration and social pillars? Can you honestly argue that the fighter doesn't fall far behind the wizard in the other pillars - especially as levels progress?

 

[Remathilis]

But the class isn't just low levels.

Becoming Batman in Tier 4 would be very reasonable to me, but again it is the combination of spells being too powerful at those levels for martials to compete with them.

After dozens of pages and hundreds of posts, we're still at the same issue:

Either raise martials, nerf spells, or find a happy medium. IMO the happy medium is someone like Batman and getting rid of the truly insane spells like Invulnerability and Wish, not to mention dozens of others. But then too many others would say it isn't D&D, etc.

The issue is Batman hangs out with the JLA because he has plot armor. Specifically, he either has played 4D chess with everyone (ally and enemy), has the proper gadget, or both. Batman doesn't fight Superman like he's punching the Joker, he used kryptonite and anti-Superman armor, plus his array of vehicles, supercomputers, and weapons.

Batman isn't a fighter or a rogue, he's a high-level artificer. Or at best he's enough fiat to get whatever magical item he needs from the DM. Either way, he's not going to survive going toe to toe with anyone but other street-level heroes and villains. It's why in the classic game of "who would win" Batman always has to be qualified with how much knowledge and prep time he has.

That's not too say Batman doesn't contribute to the JLA, he's the world's greatest detective (when the plot allows it) with the world's greatest superpower (money). He can fight like a peek human, and has mastered several social skills. But outside of Gotham, he's sorely outclassed without his "magic" items and plot coupons.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But what about the exploration and social pillars? Can you honestly argue that the fighter doesn't fall far behind the wizard in the other pillars - especially as levels progress?

But don't fighters fall behind just about every other class in those pillars, not just wizards?

And (shouldn't) every other class fall behind fighter in combat?

 

[Minigiant]

Honestly? Only through a very specific D&Desque lens. A lot of heroic myths have the heroes painted as special from an early age. Hercules with his strength. Achilles with his invulnerability. Not many I can think of where the hero starts out as a nobody and then progresses to superheroic. It's one reason why one of my suggestions was to make both mundane and epic play available throughout the entire level range. Special heroes tend to start special, while stories about soldier and mercenaries often continue to be stories about soldiers and mercenaries. Let the group decide when, if and under what circumstances the nature of the game changes

Unpopular opinion

Hercules and Achilles aren't fighters.

They are another class that represents superpowers demigods and halfbreeds.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The issue is Batman hangs out with the JLA because he has plot armor. Specifically, he either has played 4D chess with everyone (ally and enemy), has the proper gadget, or both. Batman doesn't fight Superman like he's punching the Joker, he used kryptonite and anti-Superman armor, plus his array of vehicles, supercomputers, and weapons.

Batman isn't a fighter or a rogue, he's a high-level artificer. Or at best he's enough fiat to get whatever magical item he needs from the DM. Either way, he's not going to survive going toe to toe with anyone but other street-level heroes and villains. It's why in the classic game of "who would win" Batman always has to be qualified with how much knowledge and prep time he has.

That's not too say Batman doesn't contribute to the JLA, he's the world's greatest detective (when the plot allows it) with the world's greatest superpower (money). He can fight like a peek human, and has mastered several social skills. But outside of Gotham, he's sorely outclassed without his "magic" items and plot coupons.

He is the JLA version of Iron Man, but both remain super-heroes. Both are rich, have gadgets, etc. just like a fighter in D&D can be rich, have magic items, and still be awesomely trained in combat.

You say Artificer, which is fine, but I say Fighter (monk maybe?) with magic items...

 

[Mannahnin]

Unpopular opinion

Hercules and Achilles aren't fighters.

They are another class that represents superpowers demigods and halfbreeds.

I like how 4E conceptualized it, and I retain some of the same general framework in 5E. Fighters eventually turn into/turn out to be demigods or something similar, if they make it up to epic levels. And there's a continuum of power where they get closer to that as the level up.

 

[Jer]

Unpopular opinion

Hercules and Achilles aren't fighters.

They are another class

This is where Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies from 4e could return to the game in some different form more suitable for 5e.

A version of Paragon Path/Epic Destiny that you can take starting at level 11 would allow tables that want more superheroics in high level characters to have it, while those who don't like it could ignore it.

 

[TwoSix]

But don't fighters fall behind just about every other class in those pillars, not just wizards?

And (shouldn't) every other class fall behind fighter in combat?

In my ideal world, that would be how it works. Fighter dominates in combat, wizard excels in non-combat shenanigans, and other classes split the difference.

 

[Yaarel]

This is addressing exactly 1 pillar of play: combat. Admittedly, it is, by far, the biggest in most campaigns. And yes, I'd argue that little to no tweaking is needed in the combat pillar.

But what about the exploration and social pillars? Can you honestly argue that the fighter doesn't fall far behind the wizard in the other pillars - especially as levels progress?

I am in the camp that insists all classes contribute to combat equally.

I am ok in principle with the Wizard trading hitpoints of damage for shenanigans. It is a fair swap, and the Wizard continues to contribute to combat equally.

I am also in the camp that feels the Fighter especially needs more class features to benefit from Charisma and Intelligence, to contribute more to the social pillar. Seriously, a warrior is often a leader, and is even its own kind of fetish.

 

[steeldragons]

Some ideas for what they could have:
-increase the size of or the number of damage die they deal with any weapons by one

Wow. I can't believe I never thought of this, but what a great idea! A feature, around 10th or 12th level that increases your damage die for any weapon wielded. The warrior's expertise is such that a swing of a sword deals 2d6 instead of d8...or whatever/however the dice increase. Again at...16th? Sounds good to me. Incorporating this immediately.

-able to bypass resistance to slashing/peircing/bludgeoning damage, Immunity is reduced to resistance

Also good. Make for a decent Fighter specific feature. "Best at fighting," let's remember. Rangers and Paladins and Barbarians have other ways of circumventing things. Fighter deserves one of their own.

-inherent special attack options or bonus effects for each weapon [not mutually exclusive with maneuvers], a fighter can shoot a flying enemy out of the skies to the ground with a bow, make a reduced reckless attack with the greatsword, strike the ground with the warhammer to trip nearby creatures, stun with club attacks, perform a spin attack with the longsword, disarm people with a whip attack, those sorts of things that are exhibits of skill rather than anything magical, maybe they don't get all of them maybe they do?

This sounds like a lot of work...comign up with an added effect for every possible kind of weapon...but it could totally work/be worth it. I would be inclined to keep this a strictly "Maneuvers" that can be chosen as desired...just for organization/keeping things tidy. But if introduced as a Fighter (and subclasses) specific features...like introduce something for the most common/obvious options first...more obscure or exotic options at later levels...I can see it. Just not sure if I'd want to do all the work. hahaha.

-expertiese on athletics

This seems a no-brainer and my system/homebrew does have this.

-inherent jump spell may be stretching it but extra distance/height on jumps isn't too out there

This crosses my taste/preference line. I am also curious about where/why this obsession with Jump distances, in particular, comes from for the (for lack of a better term and not dissing individual preferences in any way) "superheroic Fighter" crowd. Why is the idea they can jump huge/supernatural distances or heights such a draw/big deal?

-later levels gain minor climb and or swim speeds?

meh.

-later levels low level health regeneration under half health?

This I can see/get behind.

-able to throw any melee weapon without needing the thrown tag

This makes complete sense.