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Christian Magic
- Thread starter fusangite
- Start date
The_Universe
First Post
Just thought of something else - try reading "The Kingdom of the Grail" and "The Pride of Kings" - both by Judith Tarr. They fit very well into what you seem to be trying to create.
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
The_Universe said:
Um nope - Weather god. He was the Wind moving over the waters and Leviathan is the storm which blows in from the sea.
Anyway the Bible explains what the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are thus
“There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.” – 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
So use this list as a starting point
Spirit the message of wisdom
message of knowledge
faith
gifts of healing
miraculous powers
prophecy,
distinguishing between spirits
speaking in different kinds of tongues
interpretation of tongues
The_Universe
First Post
Totally agreed that those are the themes that God (Particularly the Holy Spirit part of the Triune) acquired. I'm not sure I'm sold that that was the thematic during the pre-Christian era, though. I was talking about what the theme began as, not what it became.Tonguez said:
The Holy Spirit comes from the word for wind in either aramaic or greek (I forget which) doesn't it? In any case, I know I have read that there are strong implications that that portion of the Holy Trinity is feminine (or at least effeminate). Not sure if that applies to anything discussed...but it is interesting.
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TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
I will also pile in for Green Ronin's Medieval Player Manual and Testament. I have also heard good things for Malhovoc's Anger of Angels, which is rooted in Judeo-Christian views of Angels and Demons.
One thing, the range of what "Christian Magic" may involve, at least based on the supernatural events in the bible, saints lives and related work (and spelled out in many of the other posts on this thread), is pretty vast. Which is natural given that it is derived from a trinity of the all powerfull. Game mechanics are another story.
In our homebrew (sig) we have no problem using (modified) clerics and paladins and standard spells and spell slots for "Holy Church" and "Orthodox" holy men (and women) who have been Chosen to have divine power. Afterall, the cleric is loosely based on a medieval crusader, and a fair number of spells have a biblical origin or connection of somekind. But most importantly, it is just a game, and we have opted for something more standard vs something more closely tied to legend, history or belief.
One thing, the range of what "Christian Magic" may involve, at least based on the supernatural events in the bible, saints lives and related work (and spelled out in many of the other posts on this thread), is pretty vast. Which is natural given that it is derived from a trinity of the all powerfull. Game mechanics are another story.
In our homebrew (sig) we have no problem using (modified) clerics and paladins and standard spells and spell slots for "Holy Church" and "Orthodox" holy men (and women) who have been Chosen to have divine power. Afterall, the cleric is loosely based on a medieval crusader, and a fair number of spells have a biblical origin or connection of somekind. But most importantly, it is just a game, and we have opted for something more standard vs something more closely tied to legend, history or belief.
What Jehovah stared as depends on whether you take a point of view based on the book of Genesis, or based on current historical understanding of the development of Jehovah.
If the former, then I would say all-around weather deity.
If the latter, then I would say combination solar-disk god (Aten?/adonai?) and tribal storm god (yahweh), with a later level gain to babylonian-derived uber-deity.
However, since hte theme of THIS thread is about medieval christian magic, I think neither of those are relevant. Since the point would not be to examine the powers of god in mythical or historical origins, but the powers of god as Medieval Christians understood them.
Which would basically make any attempt to assign specific "portfolios" to God completely pointless.
You could, however, appoint specific portfolios to catholic saints!
Nisarg
If the former, then I would say all-around weather deity.
If the latter, then I would say combination solar-disk god (Aten?/adonai?) and tribal storm god (yahweh), with a later level gain to babylonian-derived uber-deity.
However, since hte theme of THIS thread is about medieval christian magic, I think neither of those are relevant. Since the point would not be to examine the powers of god in mythical or historical origins, but the powers of god as Medieval Christians understood them.
Which would basically make any attempt to assign specific "portfolios" to God completely pointless.
You could, however, appoint specific portfolios to catholic saints!
Nisarg
The_Universe
First Post
Yeah - in the christian world, God has access to all "portfolios" as even the Devil is His creation. Specific Saints are a lot more like the Greyhawk Gods found in the PHB, albeit without the ostensibly evil ones.Nisarg said:
Torm
Explorer
Well, Jason, what I said was:ptolemy18 said:One last comment... I'm definitely positively iimpressed by what *is* allowed on this forum. I'm just always curious when something gets deleted.... what hideous off-topic blasphemy did it contain?!?! Etc.
Jason
And then Piratecat got all medieval moderatin' on me, and said:Torm the True said:
And then I said,Piratecat said:
And then Piratecat said,Torm the True said:
And then we both went and changed our posts, and that was that.Piratecat said:Well, sees to it that it don't, er it won't be pretty - you'll
Malleus Maleficarum
Perhaps a work from the Inquisition is too late for your needs, but I think the Malleus Maleficarum (The Witch Hammer) would approximate many medieval beliefs about diabolical witchcraft and Christian counters, particularly in Part II:
TREATING ON THE METHODS BY WHICH THE WORKS OF WITCHCRAFT ARE WROUGHT AND DIRECTED, AND HOW THEY MAY BE SUCCESSFULLY ANNULLED AND DISSOLVED Resolved in but two Questions, yet these are divided into many Chapters. QUESTION I
Question I Of those against whom the Power of Witches availeth not at all.
Chapter I Of the several Methods by which Devils through Witches Entice and Allure the Innocent to the Increase of that Horrid Craft and Company.
Chapter II Of the Way whereby a Formal Pact with Evil is made.
Chapter III How they are Transported from Place to Place.
Chapter IV Here follows the Way whereby Witches copulate with those Devils known as Incubi.
Chapter V Witches commonly perform their Spells through the Sacraments of the Church. And how they Impair the Powers of Generation, and how they may Cause other Ills to happen to God's Creatures of all kinds. But herein we except the Question of the Influence of the Stars.
Chapter VI How Witches Impede and Prevent the Power of Procreation.
Chapter VII How, as it were, they Deprive Man of his Virile Member.
Chapter VIII Of the Manner whereby they Change Men into the Shapes of Beasts.
Chapter IX How Devils may enter the Human Body and the Head without doing any Hurt, when they cause such Metamorphosis by Means of Prestidigitation.
Chapter X Of the Method by which Devils through the Operations of Witches sometimes actually possess men.
Chapter XI Of the Method by which they can Inflict Every Sort of Infirmity, generally Ills of the Graver Kind.
Chapter XII Of the Way how in Particular they Afflict Men with Other Like Infirmities.
Chapter XIII How Witch Midwives commit most Horrid Crimes when they either Kill Children or Offer them to Devils in most Accursed Wise.
Chapter XIV Here followeth how Witches Injure Cattle in Various Ways.
Chapter XV How they Raise and Stir up Hailstorms and Tempests, and Cause Lightning to Blast both Men and Beasts.
Chapter XVI Of Three Ways in which Men and Women may be Discovered to be Addicted to Witchcraft: Divided into Three Heads: and First of the Witchcraft of Archers.
QUESTION II
Question II The Methods of Destroying and Curing Witchcraft
Introduction, wherein is Set Forth the Difficulty of this Question.
Chapter I The Remedies prescribed by the Holy Church against Incubus and Succubus Devils.
Chapter II Remedies prescribed for Those who are Bewitched by the Limitation of the Generative Power.
Chapter III Remedies prescribed for those who are Bewitched by being Inflamed with Inordinate Love or Extraordinary Hatred.
Chapter IV Remedies presribed for those who by Prestidigitative Art have lost their Virile Members or have seemingly been Transformed into the Shapes of Beasts.
Chapter V Prescribed Remedies for those who are Obsessed owing to some Spell.
Chapter VI Prescribed Remedies; to wit, the Lawful Exorcisms of the Church, for all Sorts of Infirmities and Ills due to Witchcraft; and the Method of Exorcising those who are Bewitched.
Chapter VII Remedies prescribed against Hailstorms, and for animals that are Bewitched.
Chapter VIII Certain Remedies prescribed against those Dark and Horrid Harms with which Devils may Afflict Men.
Perhaps a work from the Inquisition is too late for your needs, but I think the Malleus Maleficarum (The Witch Hammer) would approximate many medieval beliefs about diabolical witchcraft and Christian counters, particularly in Part II:
TREATING ON THE METHODS BY WHICH THE WORKS OF WITCHCRAFT ARE WROUGHT AND DIRECTED, AND HOW THEY MAY BE SUCCESSFULLY ANNULLED AND DISSOLVED Resolved in but two Questions, yet these are divided into many Chapters. QUESTION I
Question I Of those against whom the Power of Witches availeth not at all.
Chapter I Of the several Methods by which Devils through Witches Entice and Allure the Innocent to the Increase of that Horrid Craft and Company.
Chapter II Of the Way whereby a Formal Pact with Evil is made.
Chapter III How they are Transported from Place to Place.
Chapter IV Here follows the Way whereby Witches copulate with those Devils known as Incubi.
Chapter V Witches commonly perform their Spells through the Sacraments of the Church. And how they Impair the Powers of Generation, and how they may Cause other Ills to happen to God's Creatures of all kinds. But herein we except the Question of the Influence of the Stars.
Chapter VI How Witches Impede and Prevent the Power of Procreation.
Chapter VII How, as it were, they Deprive Man of his Virile Member.
Chapter VIII Of the Manner whereby they Change Men into the Shapes of Beasts.
Chapter IX How Devils may enter the Human Body and the Head without doing any Hurt, when they cause such Metamorphosis by Means of Prestidigitation.
Chapter X Of the Method by which Devils through the Operations of Witches sometimes actually possess men.
Chapter XI Of the Method by which they can Inflict Every Sort of Infirmity, generally Ills of the Graver Kind.
Chapter XII Of the Way how in Particular they Afflict Men with Other Like Infirmities.
Chapter XIII How Witch Midwives commit most Horrid Crimes when they either Kill Children or Offer them to Devils in most Accursed Wise.
Chapter XIV Here followeth how Witches Injure Cattle in Various Ways.
Chapter XV How they Raise and Stir up Hailstorms and Tempests, and Cause Lightning to Blast both Men and Beasts.
Chapter XVI Of Three Ways in which Men and Women may be Discovered to be Addicted to Witchcraft: Divided into Three Heads: and First of the Witchcraft of Archers.
QUESTION II
Question II The Methods of Destroying and Curing Witchcraft
Introduction, wherein is Set Forth the Difficulty of this Question.
Chapter I The Remedies prescribed by the Holy Church against Incubus and Succubus Devils.
Chapter II Remedies prescribed for Those who are Bewitched by the Limitation of the Generative Power.
Chapter III Remedies prescribed for those who are Bewitched by being Inflamed with Inordinate Love or Extraordinary Hatred.
Chapter IV Remedies presribed for those who by Prestidigitative Art have lost their Virile Members or have seemingly been Transformed into the Shapes of Beasts.
Chapter V Prescribed Remedies for those who are Obsessed owing to some Spell.
Chapter VI Prescribed Remedies; to wit, the Lawful Exorcisms of the Church, for all Sorts of Infirmities and Ills due to Witchcraft; and the Method of Exorcising those who are Bewitched.
Chapter VII Remedies prescribed against Hailstorms, and for animals that are Bewitched.
Chapter VIII Certain Remedies prescribed against those Dark and Horrid Harms with which Devils may Afflict Men.
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