Chumming the dungeon

The players let you know that they were interested in a certain thread by following it and in response, you, probably, will flesh it out. That, in a nutshell, is it.

I disagree.

As I understand it, the term 'chumming' means adapting your game world to conform to player speculation.

I think I very clearly stated I was not going to do that when I said: "I'm not going to change the story to put it on the new path..."

All I'm saying is that if the PC's evidence interest in a particular line of play, that I'll go ahead and prepare for that choice. I've said nothing about putting in that place anything that they expect to find or using there own good ideas against them. By suggesting that I'll develop contingencies for the possibility that the players will follow up on a particular red herring, I'm really saying IMO nothing different than if I hadn't planned to take the campaign into the mountains by the PC's end up deciding to follow up some minor rumor I'd considered trivial by heading off in that direction. In that event, I'll go ahead and prep mountains and whatever is there. But I'm not going to take the player expectation that something in the mountains is the BBEG behind it all into account when doing so. I'll just let them head out that way, have adventures, and they'll probably eventually end up with clues to come at the BBEG from a direction I hadn't anticipated.
 

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I guess I misunderstood your essential disagreement.

I don't see it as all that different, the two things you've spelled out, but I accept that you do.

I still don't see the act of taking their feared utterances and making them 'real', on occasion, as such a terrible thing.

Still, how far is it?

In the quote you've not invented anything yet, along the new path. The players have deduced something based on what you've told them. You wouldn't yet be in the realm of retconning if you took on board some idea of the players and made it 'real'. Would that be so bad?

And I see the above as not that far different from changing what you've already done to fit some rather new cool thing the players have stated. On occasion.

Would they really be that upset with you?

How is that railroading?
 

Yes, indeed. What I tend to experience in these games is, "Gee, the door is suddenly trapped in response to some metagame consideration by the DM - either the DM thinks the game isn't going well and he wants to spice it up, or the DM has decided that since I'm searching for traps, now would be a good time to have one, or the DM has decided that since I'm searching for traps I must want to find one, or the DM has decided things were too easy and we need another challenge. So I what I need to do to succeed in this game is pretend to be stupid so that the DM doesn't get inspired to ad hoc another trap, which, knowing my luck with the dice (and because unlike the other players at the table who've been reporting 6's as 16's, I don't cheat, which the DM is probably used to factoring into how he plays his games) is probably going to kill my character."

I like how in your arguments, the GM who follows your method is a skilled practitioner, while the GM who follows mine is a bumbling bafoon. Nice.

I'm not saying every door needs to be trapped. What I am saying is, if you have a rogue in your party and there are no traps AND THE PLAYER IS GETTING BORED, maybe it is time to read off that feedback and throw something in. You are, in essence, giving the player what he/she wants.

The player, if he even picks up on this, isn't going to say "hey, I should be stupid so the GM doesn't hit me with traps", what he is going to say is instead "hey, if I give the GM feedback on what I like, I'll encounter more of that".

To me, that is a good thing. Your mileage may vary, and that's perfectly fine.

If this happens to you very often, you need to consider hanging up your hat.

Wait, why? Because I took some feedback from my players and went with it? Or because I put too many orcs in the dungeon in the first place?

But yes, my dungeons do tend to be pretty bland when I write them up - because I intend on taking player information and seeding them as I go. If the table seems to go in a silly direction, I silly up the dungeon. If it's more serious, I drop some horror elements. It works for us. But then, I imagine we're a different table than yours. We're very much "beer and pretzels".

Let me tell you what's really going on here.

This should be good. :P

You're winging it. Your game doesn't make much sense, has little structure, and has little forethought. Rather than saying, "Gee, maybe I should put some effort into my games.", you are relying on the human propensity to take a big steaming pile of chaos and attempting to provide some orderly explanation for it.

Yeah, I'm winging it. And yeah, sometimes there are plot holes that pop up because of this. But you don't really have a grasp on my game. It does make sense, players are entertained, and (just as importantly) I'm entertained running with the structure and planning I've done.

To use your own words, I'll tell YOU what's "going on here". You create and run dungeons (or adventures, or whatever) and that is your primary area of focus. I create and run situations. They are two entirely different focal points for running a game. I am at my best with one page of notes, and maybe a scrawled map. For me, that is my comfort level.

My game does not suffer because of it.

So to me, I get in this situation and I can usually figure it out in the first 3-4 hours, and the thought strucks me that I'm both the DM and the player in this game, and I wonder why in the heck I'm wasting my time playing by myself.

For starters, I have my own contributions to add. I'm not going "hey, Blargney thinks it's the guy with the evil moustache... I should make it that guy". I'm not above throwing twists and turns at the party. I'm not just handing freebies out to the party. And I will almost always twist the party prediction in some way or another, if only so they don't instantly assume I was taking their idea. It also makes the game more interesting for all of us.

Second, you're never playing with yourself. Yes, in such a game the players assume a bit more of a GM role, whether they realize it or not. But then, I have a group of five players... who want different things. Even if everyone in my group knows what I am doing, there is still a hodge-podge of ideas being thrown around... and it becomes my job to mix them up and entertain everyone.

I firmly hold it is the GM's job to adapt to his group's playstyle, not the group's job to adapt to the GM. Other people's opinions may vary (but that's another argument).

Third, if you were my player and made it a point that you didn't like this sort of play, I would be making an effort to accomodate that (while accomodating the other players, of course). But I still hold that you wouldn't realize what I was doing - I'm very good at keeping my players on their toes regarding what's coming next.

For the record, I don't always "chum the dungeon" - if I have a good idea, I stick to it. But if my idea is too bland or doesn't have traction with the group... I'll change it. And their ideas are often AWESOME, so why not use them?
 

Say, 60-70% of the time I'm either on the expected track, on a contingency plan, or at least on the map where I've some sort of plan. The rest of the time I'm winging it.
And is your winging it some kind of horrible horrible disaster, where because you're making things up as you go along all your players recoil in disasterous horror?

Or does it actually generally work out okay, all told?



No, you don't need to go that far. I would recommend for 'dungeon' environments (which might include haunted house in a modern setting) having a short list of things found in the event of a search check, even if those things are trivial. You can condense it into a resuable dungeon wide table and get alot of mileage out of that.
And if a player suddenly mentions that they could block the door if only they had a stapler, and some cables?
Do you add those things with a wink and a nod "now you think about it, there WAS a stapler in X place"
Do you add them with an out-of-game "sorry about this, it makes sense there were some, here you go"
Or
Do you leave the players without them, even if it makes sense that they'd be there?


And for many players, there isn't alot of fun to be had unless the DM has made at least some preparation.
You seem attached to this dichotomy.

I've never met someone who would GM a game with no preparation.

Well, except for me, the very first time I GMed, and everyone agreed that was quite fun, if completely, and totally, ludicrous.

Given as we were playing in a pub, a serious game would have been silly.


And yes, some players appreciate planning more than others. I have players in one group who feel railroaded if I have more than two lines of notes on the session plan (they don't mind much, but the feeling is there) whereas I have another group that expect a full campaign+setting planned out in advance, or they feel like it isn't real enough.


But both groups appreciate a bit of customisation.

I'm sure there are DMs out there that could run a game as well as I could or even better with no more notes that I have for my starting outline. But in estimation, they are few and far between.
Run a better game for you? Few and far between.

Run a better game for me? Reasonably common.

Run a better game for my mate Becky? Pretty much all of them most likely.


Yeah, sure, but they don't necessarily make that choice have any particular meaning.
It doesn't have any particular meaning either way.

Meaningless choices like "I'm going to start buying fish/chickens/turnips/gloves as presents" remain meaningless whether it is by coincidence, or by design, that they come up.

I know if one of my players started buying everyone they liked gloves, I would make sure some NPC had some liking, or hatred, for gloves. I would make their quirk have interesting results.
 


There's nothing better than letting your players plan your villains' heists.

Indeed, the Penguin figured this out 40+ years ago:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh4EDHSlDNI&NR=1]YouTube - Fine Feathered Finks Part 2[/ame]
(Plot revealed 6 minutes in)

Fine Feathered Finks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Penguin's a Jinx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Penguin's nefarious plot: bug Batman and Robin, drop lots of meaningless umbrella-themed clues, and let the Dynamic Duo figure out his next brilliant crime for him.
 


This is from his introduction to Mayfair Games 1987 version of the City-State of the Invincible Overlord, originally published by Judges Guild in the 70s.
The 10,000 or so Gamemasters around in 1977 were hard pressed to keep pace with the demands of their players. The game was brand new, a totally unique experience. Enthusiasts devoured everything done and ravened for yet more.

I recall churning out dungeon level after dungeon level in 1973 and 1974, sacrificing sleep, let alone other pursuits, in order to have fresh territory for my burgeoning body of Players to adventure in. By 1975, I was doing detailed outdoor scenarios between pages of manuscript for the Greyhawk supplement. That city had by then, I must say, grown from a single-page sketch-map to a four-page city map ... but without too many details. Like most DMs then, I preferred to do a lot of instant creativity ("winging-it" in the vernacular), or else just didn't have the time or energy to spend the hours and hours needed to do a truly detailed town. Gamemasters were chained to production of material by their Players, and the people at TSR were likewise running to keep up with the demands for new product by the DMs and Players alike. Judges Guild perceived the need and stepped in to fill the void.

The above is from the thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/276066-looking-gygax-quote.html#post5170393. Sorry for the quote mining but I thought it was interesting for this thread.

I wonder what his later thoughts on the matter of winging it were?
 

Term reminds me of a time where it was quite literal in my friend's campaign.
Coastal island fort with ocean moat, and one of my fellow players remarked, "Not gonna be any cool moat monster here is there?" snidely to the DM. We did not survive the flying sharks...
 

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