D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[BenjaminPey]

with the ability to do those things, the game world wouldn't look anything like it actually does. All that lore, history, etc? No longer makes any sense (like any of the battles in FR). It was teetering on the cliff of breaking verisimilitude anyway with current spells, but now? Full Spinal Tap turning it up to 11.

It's literally what Bavmorda does to the opposing army in Willow, though. Why not making it possible in DnD? At this level and with this kind of logistic involved, it's an NPC thing anyway. A plot device. I'm not inclined to derive any world-building from that, beyond the needs of the hour. I get that it will not completly fly with those who need extra consistency, NPCs following the rules which themselves are supposed to reflect the physics of the world and all that sort of things, but this isn't my jam, and, for me at least, dnd isn't that kind of games. It's not a world simulator.

But making possible a scene straight from Willow? That's my jam.

Also, on a more general note, this kind of rules buried in a pricy expansion is typically super easy to just ignore if it's not your kind of game. Anybody should feel confortable not using it at their table, if they don't feel like it will work for them, and I don't see any players balk at the thought of a DM banning their hippo army, as nobody ever complain about not being able to use the peasant railgun.

 

[Evil Joe]

My two bits. No, this will not go away, anymore than Silvery Barbs did. Yes, party composition will be based on this. I also think new builds will be created based on this, and that we will see new tactics that revolve around circle casting. After all, it only takes two people. If all you want to do is pass off concentration, then that's all you need. Think every broken spell combo that used to require a Ring of Spell Storing, or Arcane Abeyance, only without the limits on spell level, or the need for multiple high level casters.

I pretty much agree with Sacrosanct, but will add that I don't see where the primary caster can't upcast a spell, so things like an upcast Spirit Guardians that's 45 feet wide will be fairly common with circle casting. Nor do I see where Meta Magic isn't allowed?

 

[Zardnaar]

My two bits. No, this will not go away, anymore than Silvery Barbs did. Yes, party composition will be based on this. I also think new builds will be created based on this, and that we will see new tactics that revolve around circle casting. After all, it only takes two people. If all you want to do is pass off concentration, then that's all you need. Think every broken spell combo that used to require a Ring of Spell Storing, or Arcane Abeyance, only without the limits on spell level, or the need for multiple high level casters.

I pretty much agree with Sacrosanct, but will add that I don't see where the primary caster can't upcast a spell, so things like an upcast Spirit Guardians that's 45 feet wide will be fairly common with circle casting. Nor do I see where Meta Magic isn't allowed?

You can do a 45' spirit guardians?

 

[Evil Joe]

You can do a 45' spirit guardians?

10 feet per secondary caster with the expand option.

 

[Distracted DM]

I can't even get my players to agree which direction to take in a dungeon, but apparently all your groups are happy to jointly sacrifice their precious actions and spell slots to help unleash a nuke that trivialises one encounter.

Like, in practical terms, if the whole party is willing to jointly expend resources to defeat an enemy then isn't that fine? That's how the game works, this is just a very literal implementation of it. And if it's ruining combats, well you're the DM: just make them harder. But I just don't see it working that well, and all the really atrocious examples involve high level spells that are already game-breaking against inappropriate enemies. What epic tier spellcaster can't vaporise 1,300 goblins with a flick of their wrist already? Why are you setting up that kind of conflict for characters who should be invading the Nine Hells or kicking Vecna's head in?

At high levels, the characters' ability to mow through mooks is not exactly in dispute. The stakes for a situation like that should be...like...what effect does instantaneously murdering thousands of goblins have on their conscience? Or will it bring down the literal wrath of Maglubiyet on them or something? The win conditions for the scenario at the point at which you're expecting your players to employ world-altering circle magic should probably be more interesting than Do Most Damage.

Just a note that only half of them require any resource expenditure, and action economy's only a concern in an actual combat- which it seems like a lot of folk are not referring to here.

edit: Although the above mention of a massive Spirit Guardians seems pretty crazy, and obviously would be in combat. Does that actually work? Wow.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

It's not some temp HP, it's gaining temp HP = to the creature it changes into. So each goblin would get 76 temp HP.

Spells like this, and the ones above (like purify food and water) completely turn the game world on its head. with the ability to do those things, the game world wouldn't look anything like it actually does. All that lore, history, etc? No longer makes any sense (like any of the battles in FR). It was teetering on the cliff of breaking verisimilitude anyway with current spells, but now? Full Spinal Tap turning it up to 11.

Also, that was just one of the biggest examples to prove the point. There are lots of other examples that would and do occur in typical games. Don't get hung up on the 13,000 elephants where you're not paying attention to any of the other examples. For example, the first goblin cave in Phandelver? Just cast earth tremor a couple times with extended range. Don't even need to enter the caves. Done.

The lore of Realms never made sense with how magic eorks in the game

 

[Evil Joe]

Although the above mention of a massive Spirit Guardians seems pretty crazy, and obviously would be in combat. Does that actually work? Wow.

As near as I can tell...

 

[Sacrosanct]

I can't even get my players to agree which direction to take in a dungeon, but apparently all your groups are happy to jointly sacrifice their precious actions and spell slots to help unleash a nuke that trivialises one encounter.

Like, in practical terms, if the whole party is willing to jointly expend resources to defeat an enemy then isn't that fine? That's how the game works, this is just a very literal implementation of it. And if it's ruining combats, well you're the DM: just make them harder. But I just don't see it working that well, and all the really atrocious examples involve high level spells that are already game-breaking against inappropriate enemies. What epic tier spellcaster can't vaporise 1,300 goblins with a flick of their wrist already? Why are you setting up that kind of conflict for characters who should be invading the Nine Hells or kicking Vecna's head in?

At high levels, the characters' ability to mow through mooks is not exactly in dispute. The stakes for a situation like that should be...like...what effect does instantaneously murdering thousands of goblins have on their conscience? Or will it bring down the literal wrath of Maglubiyet on them or something? The win conditions for the scenario at the point at which you're expecting your players to employ world-altering circle magic should probably be more interesting than Do Most Damage.

That's not how it works though. Those other casters really aren't expending anything in most cases. And the most glaring part (at least as I see it), is that there is no level requirement. All you need is a couple level 1 casters to significantly increase the spell by an exponential amount.

My two bits. No, this will not go away, anymore than Silvery Barbs did. Yes, party composition will be based on this. I also think new builds will be created based on this, and that we will see new tactics that revolve around circle casting. After all, it only takes two people. If all you want to do is pass off concentration, then that's all you need. Think every broken spell combo that used to require a Ring of Spell Storing, or Arcane Abeyance, only without the limits on spell level, or the need for multiple high level casters.

I pretty much agree with Sacrosanct, but will add that I don't see where the primary caster can't upcast a spell, so things like an upcast Spirit Guardians that's 45 feet wide will be fairly common with circle casting. Nor do I see where Meta Magic isn't allowed?

Exactly right.

The lore of Realms never made sense with how magic eorks in the game

But now it's much worse. Before you could see how armies or a battle could have been done. There are dozens of battles in Fearun that defined the lore and game world. Now? None of those battles should have happened like that. Some of them even had arch mages like Elminster involved. Reading the lore, it makes no sense for the battle to be the way it was if circle magic existed as written. This mechanic completely rewrites how a game world exists.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Just a note that only half of them require any resource expenditure, and action economy's only a concern in an actual combat- which it seems like a lot of folk are not referring to here.

edit: Although the above mention of a massive Spirit Guardians seems pretty crazy, and obviously would be in combat. Does that actually work? Wow.

Yes. As does earth tremor to kill all low level creatures within thousands of feet from a party of 1st level characters. We're not just talking about high level mages here. A 1st level party with a cleric, sorcerer or wizard (very common) can wreck havoc on traditional adventures and encounters.

 

[Evil Joe]

Just a note that only half of them require any resource expenditure, and action economy's only a concern in an actual combat- which it seems like a lot of folk are not referring to here.

Pre casting spells that have a longer duration, like Spirit Guardians, would be the smart move BEFORE an encounter. Also prolonging spells like Aura of Vitality out to an hour. Spending an additional spell slot for that is a trivial cost, and think of how many spell slots you're saving on healing spells.

A 1st level party with a cleric, sorcerer or wizard (very common) can wreck havoc on traditional adventures and encounters.

Yes, especially when people start taking spellcasting dips.