D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[mellored]

I do not see this as a big deal as it uses both more actions and more spell slots and the benefits are only marginally better, it is situationally really powerful - like you want to Fireball a Dragon from a mile away, but generally I don't see this as being a big deal IMO.

Maybe I am missing something?

it's going to be rare to use in combat.

But giving the party 24 hours Freedom of Movement at the end of the day can set you up for tomorrow's dungeon crawl.
Or 8 hours of Haste, Spirit Guardians, or Fly.
Moonbeam or Flaming Sphere for 1 hour is much more useful to drag between combats.

Long range can also mess things up in certain circumstances.

Also, splitting concentration is free. So that's just going to be added every time you don't have anything else to do.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It is way worse for a player to struggle playing their first game, than to discover they picked a spell they don't like after 10 sessions. I don't believe it, I studied it.

Apparently game design principles aren't well accepted.

Alright.

I don't believe people struggled so badly picking their character stuff in something like 4e, 13A, or similar games, to make that so radically different that the "oh, uh, sorry...you've...made a character that sucks at everything" issues that 3e had, and 5e retains, albeit to a lesser extent.

Especially because 5e has significantly more complex character creation for more than half of characters. Doubly so with 5.0, when you had to pick subclass right away for several spellcasting classes.

Get back to me when we've stopped cramming Vancing spellcasting down new players' throats and calling it "simplicity".

 

[SkidAce]

Make circle casting cost a feat.
Or a level requirement to support a particular spell level.

Its an interesting framework....How would you solve it?

 

[ECMO3]

Lastly sure the dragon gets a Tasha spell at a thousand feet. if it succeeds the dragon drops out of sight. Then hugs the terrain or approaches from another direction… assuming it fails the save which is not a given at level 1.

Or really even a possibility if it is an adult with legendary saves.

 

[Distracted DM]

Make circle casting cost a feat.
Or a level requirement to support a particular spell level.

Its an interesting framework....How would you solve it?

I was surprised that it had no barrier to entry! I really did expect a feat, half-feat, or for it to be crappy without said investment.

 

[ECMO3]

But giving the party 24 hours Freedom of Movement at the end of the day can set you up for tomorrow's dungeon crawl.

Yeah on a party with at least 8 casters! I've never played a 5E game with 8 PCs, all with the spell casting or pact magic feature. I don't know that I have played a 5E game with 8 PCs period.

This is also 8 4th level slots and 56 other spell slots to pull this off.

Keep in mind FOM only works against magical effects. So going into a cabal of Clerics that are going to spam Hold Person - yeah pretty powerful, if you have 8 casters in the party, a days notice, and the evil Clerics don't also have Dispel Magic. But if you are going against a host of Ghouls, a Basilisk or a Behir or the vast majority of enemies that will restrain or paralyze you and it gives you immunity to difficult terrain. Nice but not game breaking.

Or 8 hours of Haste, Spirit Guardians, or Fly.

That is just not that big a deal. One party member hasted for 8 hours (or more likely for concentration) at the cost of a 3rd level slot and three 1st level slots and sucking up concentration for the caster. So no Guidance, no Detect Magic, no Fear, no Fog Cloud, no ready action spells at all for an entire 8 hours (if concentration actually lasts that long) .... oh and no more participating in Circle spells for you during that time either!

Spirit Guardians for the same cost and again until Concentration ends, and don't forget you need to specify who Spirit Guardians does not effect when you cast it. So I hope no allies/civilians/hostages stumble across your path. Did you remember the Wizard's familiar and the Paladin's Horse when you cast it? I hope the Ranger doesn't have to summon a new companion during those 8 hours.

I can have a PC Fly 24 hours a day using no spell slots at all just by picking the right species.

This is all a big nothing in my opinion. Less "gamebreaking" than Lemond's tiny Hut or a number of 1st level spells.

 

[mellored]

Yeah on a party with at least 8 casters!
This is also 8 4th level slots and 56 other spell slots to pull this off.

No.
It's an 8th level slot (upcast to target 5), and a few hired NPCs before you the night before ylj leave town.

Might as well toss Longstrider, Aid, Feather Fall, Blink, Death Ward, Regeneration, and Foresight while you at it. Possibly others non-concentration buffs I've missed. Then take a long rest and get all the slots back.

Is that going to happen every day? No. But it will make a big difference on the days you can do it.

One party member hasted for 8 hours (or more likely for concentration) at the cost of a 3rd level slot and 3 1st level slots and sucking up concentration from the caster.

Which is a lot more efficient than casting it 4 times a day.


Let me know when 2 martials can use a crossbow together to shoot 1000', or if a group of them can spend 10 minutes training to get advantage on all attacks for the next 24 hours.

 

[Clint_L]

This is all a big nothing in my opinion. Less "gamebreaking" than Lemond's tiny Hut or a number of 1st level spells.

Well...not for the DM. Because I can think of lots of ways for me to use it to set up interesting challenges, as I can have as many spellcasters as I need.

But yeah, I don't see it having much impact from a player's perspective. Hopefully the occasional creative use.

 

[ECMO3]

No.
It's an 8th level slot (upcast to target 5), and a few hired NPCs before you the night before ylj leave town.

Now you are talking about 15th level characters (at least).

Also, I guess you missed the part "at the DMs discretion" when it comes to NPCs participating in circle spells and that NPCs doing this need to use the "same or higher level" slots (so hire 7 more NPC casters of 15th level)

If you are 15th level, why not just buy scrolls of FOM?

Might as well toss Longstrider, Aid, Feather Fall, Blink, Death Ward, Regeneration, and Foresight while you at it. Possibly others non-concentration buffs I've missed. Then take a long rest and get all the slots back.

Yeah in a party with 8 casters .... a high level party for some of those.

Is that going to happen every day? No. But it will make a big difference on the days you can do it.

Like I said less of a difference than Lemund's Hut or a host of 1st level spells which will happen every day.

Which is a lot more efficient than casting it 4 times a day.

No it isn't. Haste is a weak spell compared to other 3rd level concentration spells you can cast

1x Haste for 8 hours is usually going to be less powerful than 1 Fear and 3 Tasha's Hideous Laughter and that is the trade you are making just in terms of spell slots, before you consider the limits on concentration and the likelihood you lose concentration before the 8 hours is up.

Haste for 8 hours is around 15 attacks, extra movement and an AC bonus ... if you hold concentration.

Let me know when 2 martials can use a crossbow together to shoot 1000', or if a group of them can spend 10 minutes training to get advantage on all attacks for the next 24 hours.

What do martials have to do with any of this?

We already have spells that can go a mile or more right out of the book unmodified, and multiple ways to get several more spells past 1000 feet and I have never seen any of them actually used at those ranges in 9 years of playing 5E. If this was such a big deal we would already see it and we don't.

Since you mentioned Martials though; any 13 level Fighter can get more attacks with advantage in a day than a caster with foresight on themself for 24 hours is going to, and he can do it a full 4 levels earlier, without anyone helping and without burning any resources. Heck, Martials with Vex are making about half of their attacks with advantage right at level 1! Do you need me to bring Barbarians into this discussion too?

Like I said - a big nothing!

 

[Sulicius]

Alright.

I don't believe people struggled so badly picking their character stuff in something like 4e, 13A, or similar games, to make that so radically different that the "oh, uh, sorry...you've...made a character that sucks at everything" issues that 3e had, and 5e retains, albeit to a lesser extent.

Especially because 5e has significantly more complex character creation for more than half of characters. Doubly so with 5.0, when you had to pick subclass right away for several spellcasting classes.

Get back to me when we've stopped cramming Vancing spellcasting down new players' throats and calling it "simplicity".

I know things could be made simpler, that is not what I am arguing about. Don’t try to make it what we are disagreeing about.

I said that ONLY listening to optimizers isn’t how you playtest your game. Balance isn’t #1 of the game design priority in 5e.