Circle kick feat questions...

[Phoenix8008]

Okay, I just read the feat Circle Kick from Sword and Fist for probably the hundredth time today and it jumped out at me. Can this be right? Maybe it's because I'm making a monk character and never thought about it before, but I gotta check with the brains at ENworld to make sure I'm doin' it right. I already checked the errata and there isn't any for this feat that I found on WOTC's site.

Here is the feat from pg. 5:

Circle Kick [General]
You kick multiple opponents with the same attack action.
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dex 15+.
Benefit: A successful unarmed attack roll allows you to make a second attack roll against a different opponent that is within the area that you threaten. This feat requires the full attack action.

So here are my questions (assuming my character is a monk with multiple attacks per round who is facing three opponents within threatened range):

1) Can the feat be used more than once per round? For instance, if I already have multiple attacks, can I attack one foe and hit then get my free cirlce kick attack at foe #2 followed by my second regular attack which could then generate another free circle kick attack if it hits?

2) Along the same lines as question #1, how does this feat interact with Whirlwind attack or multiple Cleave's from the Great Cleave feat?

3) Any other general advice for this feat or good combinations other than those mentioned in question #2? ANybody have experience with using this feat and if so, how useful was it for you?

Basically, if this thing isn't somehow limited to one use per round, it's got potential to be one whopper of a feat and will definately be on my list of feats for my monk to take!

Thanks for any help.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1) Can the feat be used more than once per round?

No.

By using the full attack action, you make one unarmed attack. If it hits, you get one more unarmed attack on another opponent.

That's it.

-Hyp.

 

[Phoenix8008]

Okay then, what bonus does the second attack get? My full BAB bonus like with the first attack? Or a lesser bonus?

If it's the full bonus, I could see some use for it as a low level monk. When you have +6/+1 for UBAB (2 levels of FTR before 6 levels of Mnk) I could see the benefit of getting 2 attacks at +6 instead of +6/+1. But once you reach higher levels and have more attacks, it becomes a very wasted feat no matter what it seems.

 

[Crothian]

The second attack is at the same bonus as the first attack. But it's till a very useful feat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Okay then, what bonus does the second attack get? My full BAB bonus like with the first attack? Or a lesser bonus?

Full.

It's like Dirty Fighting... it's a feat that doesn't completely suck at low levels, and does as soon as you get past them.

But the names are lame, so I'd rather go with Eagle Claw Attack for a feat that isn't of any real practical use

-Hyp.

 

[Sejs]

It's actually not too bad when combined with some other feats - improved grapple, knockdown or cleave/great cleave. Basically it lets you choose between using your iterative attacks on whomever, or getting your full BA for one attack each versus two opponents that you threaten.


Situational, but then again so are alot of feats. And at least it doesn't suck nearly as much as Dirty Fighting.

Edit: Oh yeah.. I totally forgot - Circle Kick + Improved Trip. Nice combo. And monks get Imp Trip for free at 6th, so you don't even need to spend more feats to pull it off. 6th+ monk with the Improved Grapple and Circle Kick feats faced by two opponents that are both within his threatened area; on monks turn: Full Attack Action, declares use of Stunning Fist. Unarmed attack against Opponent A, improved trip, stunning fist stuns on Imp Trip follow-up attack in addition to dealing damage.. Circle Kick into Opponent B, successfully hit, deal damage and initiate a grapple with Opponent B. End monk's turn.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

d20 Modern's Streetfighting feat is a good, functional replacement for Dirty Fighting. It doesn't suck, it's not overpowered, and it adds a little character to your character.

 

[Brista]

Looking at the maths Circle Kick starts mediocre and quickly becomes obsolete

4th level Monk
One attack at +3
Flurry at +1/+1
Circle kick at +3 plus (chance to hit) probability of a second attack at +3

Now usually Flurry is better.

Plugging in some numbers: 14 Str, AC 15 Goblin, Weapon focus (unarmed)

Flurry gives 50% + 50%
CK gives 60% + (60%)60%

Flurry averages 100%, Circle Kick 96%

There are some numbers where Circle Kick is better - if you need an 18 on the dice to hit then it's better

So here are the numbers for 4th and 5th level monks with this feat:
needs 20 - use flurry
needs 16,17,18,19 - use CK
needs 15 or less - use flurry


Once the Monk gains iterative attack flurry is better by far. You're getting 3 attacks instead of one, two if you're lucky.

CK still wins at precisely 18 required to hit until 10th level when Flurry is always better

I don't see the point about Circle Kick combining with Improved Trip or any other feat. You need to hit and you are usually more likely to hit with Flurry than with Circle Kick

To be blunt this is a badly designed feat, a bit of a howler in a book that includes tables later on about when to use flurry according to the percentages

The only use for it is on the NPC 4th or 5th level monks the GM wants to send against well-armoured PCs

 

[Brista]

Something else has occurred to me, making the feat even worse

As a 4th level Monk, something that you need 16 on the dice roll to hit is almost certainly something you shouldn't be in melee with!

You are quite weak relative to an armoured Fighter and an AC 20+ monster is going to almost certainly tear you apart.

You have the run and snipe option available, or at least move to flank and flurry from there

 

[Pax]

More to the point, something that needs a 16+, you shouldn't be in melee with TWO OR MORE of them.

Circle Kick's second attack HAS to be against a DIFFERENT target.