Clarification please

[Hatchling Dragon]

In a recent game our Meat Sheild was hit with a Suggestion to beat us all to death (close enough). Following this he had Prot. vs Evil cast on him. The rules (to our group) are vague enough that you can interpret this two ways.

Firstly, the Suggestion was already planted, and thus the Fighter will act upon it until it's resolved, meanwhile the Prot. vs Evil will stop future attempts for it's duration.

Alternatively, it can be argued that the Suggestion is on-going in that it's still magicaly pushing a person to perform an act they would not otherwise be doing, and thus as soon as the Prot vs Evil went up it would stop the magical 'drive' to continue.

I'm interested in hearing if this has come up before (I don't have Search ability) and how it was ruled in your games.

 

[darthkilmor]

In a recent game our Meat Sheild was hit with a Suggestion to beat us all to death (close enough). Following this he had Prot. vs Evil cast on him. The rules (to our group) are vague enough that you can interpret this two ways.

Firstly, the Suggestion was already planted, and thus the Fighter will act upon it until it's resolved, meanwhile the Prot. vs Evil will stop future attempts for it's duration.

Alternatively, it can be argued that the Suggestion is on-going in that it's still magicaly pushing a person to perform an act they would not otherwise be doing, and thus as soon as the Prot vs Evil went up it would stop the magical 'drive' to continue.

I'm interested in hearing if this has come up before (I don't have Search ability) and how it was ruled in your games.

There are several threads I believe about protection from evil. One thing worth asking, did the meat shield get his saving throw against the protection from evil ? He's certainly not going to blindly accept spells from ppl whom he's beating to death.

When you say "following this" , do you mean after he completed what the suggestion was ? Cause suggestion's duration is "1 hour/level or until completed". If the task is complete then the spell is expired.

 

[Artoomis]

This is actually quite straightforward.

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to ... exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.

Since Suggestion is exercising mental control (that is, perhaps, arguable), any Suggestion will be suppressed while Prot fm Evil is active.

The arguable point is over whether Suggestion is actually "exercising mental control." I'd say keep it simple, it's "Mind-Affecting" and is used to "influence the actions" of the target, so it's "mental control."

 

[eamon]

The arguable point is over whether Suggestion is actually "exercising mental control." I'd say keep it simple, it's "Mind-Affecting" and is used to "influence the actions" of the target, so it's "mental control."

And, just to add, suggestion is an Enchantment (compulsion) spell, so it's pretty certainly mental control. Whether it's being "exercised" even though a suggestion by nature can't change isn't so clear. I'd go with one of two interpretations, preferring the latter:

1. You exercise control the moment you cast the spell but not thereafter. A warded creature thus is completely unaffected by suggestions cast while warded but is affected by suggestions that took hold before being warded.

2. You exercise control whenever the subject is forced to perform actions he normally wouldn't do. A warded creature is affected by suggestions cast while warded as normal, but suggestions don't trigger and triggered suggestions are suppressed for the duration of the warding.

Going with (2), if your fighter principally finishes what he's started, then it's normal for him to continue beating you to death... j/k

 

[awayfarer]

Wait just a second here...

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell.

How was "beat your friends to death" phrased to sound completely reasonable and not harmful?

 

[Artoomis]

Wait just a second here...

How was "beat your friends to death" phrased to sound completely reasonable and not harmful?

That's besides the point. I can think of many ways this could be done...

Such as...

The ones you have been traveling with a really dopplegangers and are simply using you to their own ends - you should kill them all.

How this was done is completey irrelevent to the question at hand. The question starts with the assumption that the Suggestion was well-phrased and successfully done.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

"Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

Case closed. It's an "obviously harmful act" to suggest attacking one's comrades. The spell doesn't say harmful to yourself.

The spell also uses the word "influence" rather than command/control.

In my experience, suggestion is one of the most misused spells in the game.

Re: protection from evil, the argument could be made that the suggestion has already been planted and therefore couldn't be blocked. But IMC, I'd probably allow it.

 

[awayfarer]

How this was done is completey irrelevent to the question at hand.

I'm aware of the question, I'm just curious as to how the Suggestion was phrased.

The question starts with the assumption that the Suggestion was well-phrased and successfully done.

Thats exactly my point. You'd need a real silver tongue to phrase "beat your comrades to death" in a reasonable way. I suppose one could suggest this to a group that has some tension. If PC's back stories put them on opposite sides of an issue/battle or one PC is secretly working for the BBEG than maybe it could work. I'm interested in the context of the event.

 

[lottrbacchus]

I read "ongoing mental control" as meaning that a connection is maintained for the duration.

Dominate Person establishes a telepathic link. Suggestion, meanwhile, is a one-off request for action- the orders can't be changed.

And so I believe PFE doesn't work on a pre-existing Suggestion. In DP, the evil effect is external and so PFE helps; in Suggestion, the evil idea is already in your head and there is no connection to sever.

 

[Dross]

"Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

Case closed. It's an "obviously harmful act" to suggest attacking one's comrades. The spell doesn't say harmful to yourself.

about the bolded bit. Are saying that if suggestion is used to hurt anybody at all (beat apon my bodyguard and not me) the spell would not work? Or is it specific to comrades only (which may mean the dopplegangers ruse wouldn't work)?
Possible other situations:
Surrender or Run as far away as possible: leaving your adventuring buddies in a fight, that's obviously harmfull to them (I personnaly like "Run away as far as possible", since they are not betraying anyone [more than running away is] and are not actively fighting their comrades).
Grapple your mage: well, that takes 2 poeple out of the fight, the rest are going to be more hurt.
If "obviously harmful" doesn't include pure HP damage, taking any item from anyone potentially is an obviously harmful act.

IMC PFE wouldn't override a command already issued, but prevent new ones being given.