Clarification: Surprise Rounds

[Saagael]

In a recent game one member of our party got to act in a surprise round. They took the opportunity to use an attack that slowed a creature, save ends. The DM then ruled that the creature was allowed a saving throw because its turn passed, it just wasn't able to act on its turn, and thus there was an end to the turn where a save may be made. He then said that the player could avoid this by holding his turn until after the enemy's (theoretical) turn (Everyone had rolled initiative before the surprise round).

I want to call shenanigans on the DM for this rule, because, as a DM myself, it seems to make surprise rounds not surprise rounds at all: your foe is caught off-guard, but is still able to react within a second to your attack and shrug it off? Unfortunately I could not find any ruling in the PHB concerning this, for or against this odd ruling. Does anyone else have any more wisdom on this topic?

 

[darjr]

As I understand it they get a save at the end of their turn. Seeing that they don't get one until after the surprise round and after the PC's/monsters with higher initiative, I think you called it correctly.

However, I'd give the DM their fiat and talk to them about it afterwards.

 

[Saagael]

As I understand it they get a save at the end of their turn. Seeing that they don't get one until after the surprise round and after the PC's/monsters with higher initiative, I think you called it correctly.

Right, but the DM said that combatants DO get turns in the surprise round, they just can't act. I didn't see anywhere in the PHB that stated explicitly that combatants don't get turns, just that they can't act. I suppose it depends on the interpretation of "act" in this case. DM thinks it means they have turns, but don't get actions, where as I think it means they don't get turns.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

difficult subject:

what if you deal ongoing damage or use sleep?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually, I thought they explicitly don't get turns. They're not even supposed to roll initiative until after the surprise round, based on the order of events in the PHB. Can someone with access look this up? Also, I think in the DMG it actually calls out the surprise round for some special case stuff.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Looking at the rules (PH, p. 267), it says "surprised combatants do not act" and in the side box it says "Surprised: If you're surprised, you can't take any actions (not even free actions) [...]".

Additionally, though it doesn't state it expressly, it appears one rolls iniative for everyone at the beginning, even the surprised people. I say this because the Iniative section is immediately before the surprised section, and there is nothing said in either section about not rolling everyone at once.

So, it would appear that surprised creatures do get turns, they just can't spend any actions on them. The End of the Turn section says it always happens, even if unconscious, so your DM played it right.

 

[CoarseDragon]

Looking at the rules (PH, p. 267), it says "surprised combatants do not act" and in the side box it says "Surprised: If you're surprised, you can't take any actions (not even free actions) [...]".

Additionally, though it doesn't state it expressly, it appears one rolls iniative for everyone at the beginning, even the surprised people. I say this because the Iniative section is immediately before the surprised section, and there is nothing said in either section about not rolling everyone at once.

So, it would appear that surprised creatures do get turns, they just can't spend any actions on them. The End of the Turn section says it always happens, even if unconscious, so your DM played it right.

That seems clear enough but I would question as to whether rolling a save is an action.

As a side note I wouldn't roll that save anyway - more fun for the player that way.

 

[LightPhoenix]

The intent is fairly clear that surprised creatures do not get a turn at all during the surprise round. However, it is not explicitly stated anywhere.

I would reference PHB p. 266:

4. Take Surprise Round Actions. If any combatants gained a surprise round, they act in initiative order, each one taking a single action. (Surprised combatants take no actions during the surprise round.) The surprise round then ends, and the first round of combat begins.

The first sentence clearly states that surprised combatants do not act in the surprise round at all; ie, they do not get turns. The second sentence clarified that surprised combatants can not take any action, even free actions.

Furthermore, it does not say that you get a turn; it says that you can take an action. It neither says this in the quote above, or in the section about the surprise round on p.267. Therefore, it isn't a turn. Nobody gains the effects from either the start or end of the turn during the surprise round. That includes benefits like regeneration and saves, and detriments like ongoing damage. The sections are very careful not to use the term "turn." The bulletted list on p.266 even makes certain to differentiate the two (see bullets 4, 5, 6).

It sounds to me like your DM wanted to screw over the player for making a good tactical choice rather than rewarding it. Regardless of pedantic reading of the rules, the spirit of the rules is very clearly that surprised characters or enemies don't get turns.

 

[FireLance]

I think the confusion arises because of the term surprise "round".

Perhaps it would have been clearer if creatures who surprise others get surprise actions instead, and take their surprise actions in initiative order before the first round of combat.

 

[Saagael]

I'm actually kind of surprised. I didn't think people would agree with the DM (silly me). I get the argument, and I can see how RAW it can be interpreted either way.

I still think it's not entirely fair to have the party sneak up on their foe, the wizard casts sleep to knock them all out. However, since the wizard went before all the enemies, they get saves to shrug off the sleep effect, negating any bonus that the surprise round might have given, before combat even starts.

However, at least I can see where the DM is coming from, even if I don't agree with it.

And thank you to those who provided rule book citations aiding my case; I'll talk with the DM about it and see if an agreement can't be reached.