Clarification: Surprise Rounds

[Hypersmurf]

... as it specifies that those doing the surprising do get their turn .

It specifies that they act. It doesn't specify that they have a turn.

-Hyp.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The Surprise Round is (surprise!) a round. What does a round consist of? It consists of turns (See the very first rule of combat on P266 where the term "Round" is defined as "every combatant takes a turn".

Thus we have established that the surprise round is a round and it consists of turns.

Bullet point 4 on the same page never uses the term "turn", however it doesn't need to since the round by definition consists of turns.

The box on page 267 says "The Surprise Round" once again reinforcing that this is a round. It says "Two special rules apply to the surprise round" which means by standard exception based rules design that in all other respects the surprise round is a round and follows the rules of a round.

It simply states that if you are surprised you get NO actions of any kind. This would include IA and OA type actions. Technically it doesn't state that you have the surprised condition, but its a fairly logical deduction. All this means is you don't flank since the other effects are already specified in the box, so its not a really big deal for the most part.

Likewise it states that the only actions a non-surprised character can take in the surprise round are ONE standard, move, or minor action and that you can't use an AP. That means no OAs or IAs for these characters either. You COULD however take triggered free actions or any other type of free action which generally covers most of the added things you could do as part of an attack.

As for DC, it is quite true that it isn't going to be a good idea to use it during a surprise round unless you are already adjacent to the target. Its a bit of a limitation, but not really all that big a deal. There are plenty of other things that don't make much sense to use in a surprise round either.

Basically the idea is you can charge, hit with an attack if you are adjacent or can get the enemy with an area/close attack or ranged attack, or you can move around without worrying about OA and get all set to kick butt in the following round. Note that in the case of a rogue they may well have First Strike still applying in the subsequent round as well. Other options would include things like using HQ or Warlock's Curse etc.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You COULD however take triggered free actions or any other type of free action which generally covers most of the added things you could do as part of an attack.

Why could you? Are you or are you not limited to ONE action? Is there a caveat for "also free actions" during the surprise round? This makes a huge difference for any warden of course.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why could you? Are you or are you not limited to ONE action? Is there a caveat for "also free actions" during the surprise round?

Er... yes?

Two special rules apply to the surprise round.
* Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action. You can also take free actions, but you can't spend action points.
...

-Hyp.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I can think of several ways.

1. Surprise Round begins with the Paladin adjacent to an enemy.
2. Surprise Round begins. Unsurprised enemy charges paladin or moves adjacent. Unsurprised paladin challenges enemy.
3. I2K's scenario, where another PC grants the Paladin movement somehow to end up adjacent to an enemy. Paladin challenges.

That's why I prefer running in blasting stuff. Tactics be damned!

But the ongoing damage, under the no-turn reading, won't apply even to enemies who take an action in the surprise round.

Surprise action: Unsurprised wizard uses Acid Arrow, imposing ongoing damage on the unsurprised orc.
Surprise action: Unsurprised orc charges unsurprised wizard.

If these surprise actions take place within turns, the orc takes ongoing damage, then charges, then makes a saving throw. If they don't, he takes no damage, but doesn't get to make a save, and will take damage at the start of his turn in the first regular round.

Why would it? You don't get positive effects either, like regeneration. It's not taking an action that triggers ongoing damage, it's the start of your turn.

Anyway, I'm still a little confused as to this point. The timeline is either:

(No Turn) Surprise Round: Wizard hits Orc with Acid Arrow, Orc Charges Wizard. Round One: Wizard does whatever, Orc takes ongoing damage and does whatever, makes save.

or

(Turn) Surprise Round: Wizard hits Orc with Acid Arrow, Orc takes ongoing damage and charges, makes save.

It seems to me the only case in which this could be an issue is if the initial AA damage brings the Orc down to 4 hit points, in which case the ongoing damage kills the Orc before it charges. I guess that's a fair complaint, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it myself. I suppose it's a bigger issue with a spell like Sleep, where you have creatures slowed for two rounds or one round.

So what we end up with is two cases:

1) If the surprise round has turns, then abilities with effects at the start of turn (AA) are more powerful and those with effects at the end of the turn (Sleep) are less powerful.

2) If the surprise round doesn't have turns, abilities with effects at the start of the turn are less powerful, and those with effects at the end of the turn are more powerful.

If I thought it was ambiguous, I'd still take the stance of the second case, in the interest of not screwing over "save ends" effects, since they seem to be more prevalent than ongoing damage.

The point LightPhoenix is making isn't that surprised creatures get no turns; it's that nobody gets a turn in the surprise round.

The Combat Sequence says that we:
- roll initiative, then
- take surprise actions, then
- take turns.

Taking turns is something that happens after surprise actions have been resolved, therefore (the argument goes) while surprise actions are being taken, turns have not yet started. Thus, surprise actions are taken outside of the turn structure; while you're taking actions in the surprise round, it it nobody's turn.

That about sums it up, much more eloquently than I could.

 

[Saagael]

It seems to me the only case in which this could be an issue is if the initial AA damage brings the Orc down to 4 hit points, in which case the ongoing damage kills the Orc before it charges. I guess that's a fair complaint, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it myself. I suppose it's a bigger issue with a spell like Sleep, where you have creatures slowed for two rounds or one round.

The problem I had with it is that if someone puts a slow, immobilize, restrained, stunned, daze or other controlling effect, it can be removed before the rest of the players get a chance to take advantage of that; indeed, it's a wasted power since even the attack in the surprise round can't take advantage of it since they only have one action.