Clarke's principle on its head

[jasper]

People with technology can design bombers capable of flattening cities. Wizards, sorcerors, and druids can BE capable of flattening cities. In the US, we don't have to pay our jets or aircraft carriers, we don't need to worry about their loyalty, and they don't get delusions of grandeur (or maybe they wouldn't be delusions) because they're inanimate technology. ....

But we do have worry about the designers and makers selling the information or equipment to others. We do have worry about and pay the pilots and crews of jets and carriers. We do have to worry about their loyalty.

some magic can become tech. The everburning torch. Silvars so the wizard quits making them. I hire joe npc to go to wizard school (poly tech u) to become a wizard and start manufacturing Joe's everburning torch.

Command word activiate items. Another tech.
The question then becomes can anyone learn the necessary spells. Or do they have have the gift. Or go to the correct school.

So Elder Baslisk your grades are not good enough to get into hogwarts but max mercs will give you a football scholarship if you take ranger training or fighter training.

So Jasper you didn't apply to hogwarts and had to joined the army. Welcome warrior jasper. Gee Jasper grand rug man is causing you to be muster out. Here is some college money. Gee hogwarts say you too old of a muggle. Poly U has a tech school so you can learn how to make better wagons.

Doctor = cleric any doctors in the house

so magic can be view as technology if enough magic items are spread around the campaign.

 

[Silveras]

Perhaps, Silveras, but you're minimizing what is a massive and fundamental difference between magic and technology when you minimize the personal nature of magical power.

I don't think so. I think it depends on where they fit into the analogy. The wielder of magic fits into the analogy around the same place as a skilled technology worker today: a research scientist. Their knowledge is specialized, but easily replicable and spreading through increasing education. Magic is only "personal" in the case of spells. Magic items, especially wondrous items, are essentially technological devices. Just as the user of a technological device in the modern world does not have to understand the deeper principles of its operation or manufacture, so too can a commoner make use if magical technological tools.

People with technology can design bombers capable of flattening cities. Wizards, sorcerors, and druids can BE capable of flattening cities. In the US, we don't have to pay our jets or aircraft carriers, we don't need to worry about their loyalty, and they don't get delusions of grandeur (or maybe they wouldn't be delusions) because they're inanimate technology. In the magical society, wizards, druids, and clerics, would expect rewards, they could be loyal or betray, and they could become arrogant.

Well, in the real world, a rogue nuclear scientist could sell the secrets of his/her research on the black market. And the difference is ?

You seem to be muddling the analogy. You are equating the *products* of technological advances (jets, air craft carriers) with the *creators* of magical technology (spellcasters). In a magical world, the king would not need to pay his fleet of flying carpets, either; that is the more appropriate pairing.

[Fighter jet] is to [aeronautical engineer] as [carpet of flying] is to [wizard].

That seems to be a fundamental difference that would lead to very different developments in a magical society from a non-magical one.

As I said, I do not necessarily expect exactly the same. However, the same challenges (the arrival of a means of cheaply mass-producing written works) would provoke at least broadly the same responce (some laws aimed at establishing the "proper" use of the tool). The details would be different, of course.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

some magic can become tech. The everburning torch. Silvars so the wizard quits making them. I hire joe npc to go to wizard school (poly tech u) to become a wizard and start manufacturing Joe's everburning torch.

Okay, since we're all looking at how magic works by the rules as literally written, consider this: the rules DO NOT say that your wizard can gain levels by sitting in school and taking classes. A PC needs to face risk and defeat challenges to gain 3rd level and be able to cast continual flame. Do the same rules apply to an NPC?

If that restriction is rigorously imposed, then you will have a significant difference between magic and technology - magic is tied to personal greatness (power gained through overcoming challenges), whereas technical skill can be obtained by practice in an entirely safe environment.

 

[Pbartender]

If that restriction is rigorously imposed, then you will have a significant difference between magic and technology - magic is tied to personal greatness (power gained through overcoming challenges), whereas technical skill can be obtained by practice in an entirely safe environment.

Nope... You still have to gain the XP necessary to gain a level to get those skill points that you are using to learn that Technical skill.

Not to mention that the challenges over come to gain experience need not necessarily be 'adventure' oriented... I'd suspect that running a competitor out of business would qualify as a challenge to an NPC merchant, and would net him a considerable amount of XP.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't think so. I think it depends on where they fit into the analogy. The wielder of magic fits into the analogy around the same place as a skilled technology worker today: a research scientist. Their knowledge is specialized, but easily replicable and spreading through increasing education. Magic is only "personal" in the case of spells. Magic items, especially wondrous items, are essentially technological devices. Just as the user of a technological device in the modern world does not have to understand the deeper principles of its operation or manufacture, so too can a commoner make use if magical technological tools.

I can see that many wondrous items, magic weapons and armor, would have similar effect to technological items performing similar functions. Where I differ with your analysis is in thinking that the concentration of power in the person of the wizard which is far more dramatic than any concentration of similar power possible with technology would have a direct and decisive impact on the ways in which magic is used and the ways in which it effected society.

Well, in the real world, a rogue nuclear scientist could sell the secrets of his/her research on the black market. And the difference is ?

The difference between the rogue nuclear scientist and the rogue wizard is that the rogue nuclear scientist needs other people in order to be obnoxious. He needs a buyer. The buyer needs to get access to weapons grade fissile material. Then he needs a delivery system, etc. The rogue wizard is potentially the buyer, the weapon, and the delivery system all in one. Thus the potential for abusing magic is dramatically greater than that of abusing technology because no conspiracy is needed.

You seem to be muddling the analogy. You are equating the *products* of technological advances (jets, air craft carriers) with the *creators* of magical technology (spellcasters). In a magical world, the king would not need to pay his fleet of flying carpets, either; that is the more appropriate pairing.

[Fighter jet] is to [aeronautical engineer] as [carpet of flying] is to [wizard].

Only if you assume that flying carpets are analogous to fighter jets. I'm asserting that, for modest D&D economies, the wizard himself is analogous to the jet. A minor baron can afford to hire a wizard of 5th to 7th level far more easily than to buy a flying carpet. (If your PC wizard were the mercenary type, would he fight a few battles for a baron for 5,000gp or 10,000gp? I suspect a lot of wizards might well do so). Furthermore, if one insists that items be the proper comparison, the primary items that would be analogous to modern weaponry in D&D are not wondrous items but rather spell-trigger items. The Wand of Fireballs can only be used by a wizard.

Now, if you assume that anyone with an 11+ int and some schooling can become a wizard, the wizard may become analogous to a fighter pilot--highly trained, but ultimately replacable help. However, there are several important dissimilarities to consider. First, wizards make the wands of fireballs. So the wizard is necessarily both the defense industry workers who build the fighter jet and the pilot who flies it. Second, wizards are more versatile than fighter pilots. The wand of fireballs may be artillery but a wand of Charm or suggestion can also enable the wizard to fulfill other functions. A wand of summon monster or scrolls of planar binding would enable the wizard to fill the usual roles of an entire military (taking and holding ground as well as bombardment). That concentrates significantly more power in the hands of the wizard. He is, in effect, the entire military-industrial complex rolled into one person.

As I said, I do not necessarily expect exactly the same. However, the same challenges (the arrival of a means of cheaply mass-producing written works) would provoke at least broadly the same responce (some laws aimed at establishing the "proper" use of the tool). The details would be different, of course.

I don't think that the broad similarity between the responses is particularly relevant if the specifics would be necessarily different due to the dramatically different concentrations of power. If a society responded to the printing press with copyright law, it's perfectly conceivable that another society might respond to a copy spell by licensing all wizards and only allowing certain wizards to learn the copy spell. They are both responses to the same problem but they're not similar in any particularly meaningful way.

Furthermore, if the people who have the copy spell ARE the entire military/industrial complex of your society, your options are a lot more restricted. Printers were generally burghers. Had they been simultaneously, the industrialists and the mercenary captains of their day, the possible range of responses would have been dramatically different.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Nope... You still have to gain the XP necessary to gain a level to get those skill points that you are using to learn that Technical skill.

Nope. You don't need to gain any levels to use a technical skill such as knowledge (engineering) or alchemy. You can use them at first level and still get 30's on your skill rolls - it just may take you a few more tries. Whereas you cannot cast Continual Light at all until you have faced actual risk in an adventure of some type. There is no provision in the rules for gaining levels through sitting in class.

Not to mention that the challenges over come to gain experience need not necessarily be 'adventure' oriented... I'd suspect that running a competitor out of business would qualify as a challenge to an NPC merchant, and would net him a considerable amount of XP.

So are you saying that different rules apply for PCs as compared to NPCs? Or could a PC pick up a few levels of Expert (Merchant) basically risk-free by doing this? I'm just going by the rules as written here, not house rules.

 

[Pbartender]

Nope. You don't need to gain any levels to use a technical skill such as knowledge (engineering) or alchemy. You can use them at first level and still get 30's on your skill rolls - it just may take you a few more tries. Whereas you cannot cast Continual Light at all until you have faced actual risk in an adventure of some type. There is no provision in the rules for gaining levels through sitting in class.

You are being obtuse.

The point is: In D&D, you can't actually get better at ANYTHING, unless you gain a level.

So are you saying that different rules apply for PCs as compared to NPCs?

No.

Or could a PC pick up a few levels of Expert (Merchant) basically risk-free by doing this?

Yes, though it would feasibly take a very long time, and would be extraordinarily boring to reolplay.

I'm just going by the rules as written here, not house rules.

Then read your rulebook again, specifically, the DMG. Especially the part about experience awards. A DM can award experience for anything he wants. If you can't get experience (even if it is only a small amount) for denouncing a rival diplomat, running a competitor out of business, creating a masterpiece of art, or bringing in a bountiful harvest, then how are NPCs ever supposed to gain levels?

But that is really all a different thread and completely off topic... Don't mind me too much.

So, back on track... Compare and contrast magic and technology.

It is not unlike comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruit and they both taste good. But you don't make pies out of oranges, and apples don't need to be peeled.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The point is: In D&D, you can't actually get better at ANYTHING, unless you gain a level.

In the real world, people can and do get better at fighting skill simply through training and practice. In the game world, they cannot - the party fighters can spar all they want, but they won't earn any XP. Similar, the party wizard can practice his spells all he likes, but he won't earn any XP for it. Yes, the DM can award XP for whatever he likes, but I don't recall any passage in the DMG suggesting that PCs should be able to advance from level 1 to level 3 by taking classes (which was jasper's suggestion). Your game may differ.

Science is a real-world thing with a real-world pathway to improving one's skill. Science is also a game-world thing, but it's not modeled well. Anybody can pick it up, and with enough experience killing orcs you can invent calculus.

Magic is a game-world thing only. The game world rules can be seen as The Way It Really Is, not a poor approximation. So you can say that you really do only get better at magic by facing life-or-death situations; I believe the DMG does note that PCs don't get XP for situations in which there is no risk.

 

[Silveras]

Then read your rulebook again, specifically, the DMG. Especially the part about experience awards. A DM can award experience for anything he wants. If you can't get experience (even if it is only a small amount) for denouncing a rival diplomat, running a competitor out of business, creating a masterpiece of art, or bringing in a bountiful harvest, then how are NPCs ever supposed to gain levels?

But that is really all a different thread and completely off topic... Don't mind me too much.

Actually, Brother MacLaren and I are debating that point in this thread

So, back on track... Compare and contrast magic and technology.

It is not unlike comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruit and they both taste good. But you don't make pies out of oranges, and apples don't need to be peeled.

Well, the debate I think is on a higher level than the details. Both are, indeed, fruits; and including more in your diet results in better nutrition. However, just because oranges are citrus fruits and provide a defense against scurvy that apples do not provide, that does not make the comparison flawed.

Of course there are differences between magic and technology; no one has said they are *identical*. I am saying that the long-term effects on society are likely to be similar, though, as both provide means of accomplishing the same tasks.

Elder Basilisk points out the disparity of a wizard vs. a scientist. That's a disparity of detail, though. In the broader scheme of the effects over the course of a few generations, I still maintain that readily available reliable magic would assume the same sorts of roles as comparable tecnhologies in the real world, and would produce similar (though not necessarily identical) effects on the society.

I am also not talking about the effects of the relatively low number of adventuring spellcasters. I am speaking more directly about the pervasive effects of just about every settlement having at least one spellcaster as a normal resident. I am talking about the gradual, cumulative effects of the small changes in society produced generation after generation as these resident spellcasters slowly improve their craft. Magic items, especially wondrous items, that do not require a maintenance industry do much to support the idea of gradually acquiring more such power.

I submit that, over time, heads of state would see a value in having a cadre of loyal wizard educated at state expense for the good of the state, in the same way that public education is seen as a valuable investment for states in the real world.