Blog (A5E) Class Balance In A5E: How Much Damage Should A Damage Dealer Deal?

In Level Up: Advanced Fifth Edition, we’re creating new incarnations of the 5e character classes. Before we build our new classes from the ground up, we need… a teardown of the originals to see how they work! Our design goal is to produce characters of approximately the same power level as the ones in the Players Handbook. We’ll need to do some math to figure out the targets we’re shooting...

In Level Up: Advanced Fifth Edition, we’re creating new incarnations of the 5e character classes. Before we build our new classes from the ground up, we need… a teardown of the originals to see how they work!

Our design goal is to produce characters of approximately the same power level as the ones in the Players Handbook. We’ll need to do some math to figure out the targets we’re shooting for. Before we crunch the numbers, though, let's talk about what we mean by power level.

World Power Level

First, let me say that we're quite happy to expand characters’ abilities when it comes to the social and exploration pillars of the game. Some classes need more expansion than others. Currently, the wizard has dozens of exploration spells: scrying, teleportation, Jump, Find Traps, and many more. The bard has the social pillar covered, with Friends, Glibness, charms of all kinds, and the Expertise class feature which allows her to double her proficiency bonus. The rogue has Expertise but can't compete with the bard's spell tricks. A good roleplayer can do a lot with a fighter, but the class features don't do a lot of the heavy lifting.

We aim for each character class, including the non-spellcasters, to gain unique, powerful non-combat mechanical elements that let them do things that no other class can do. Let the spellcasters be jealous for once.



Combat Power Level

When I talk in this article about preserving the game's current power level, what I really mean is that a party of Level Up characters won't overperform or underperform a standard D&D party in combat. That means that you can play any D&D adventure, official or third party, and get the level of combat challenge that its designers intended.

Most of a class's combat statistics are pretty easy to figure out: How many hit points can we expect a fighter to have at level 10? What's a monk's typical Armor Class at level 3? Harder to calculate, but no less important, is this: how much damage can a character dish out at a given level? Without that piece of information, we can't really balance the classes' combat effectiveness.

There are so many variables in calculating damage that completely answering this question may be impossible. But we've got to start somewhere.

Let’s start with some assumptions.

1. I'll benchmark each character of level X against an enemy monster of CR X. Without some sort of class-granted accuracy bonus, each character hits 60% of the time. (Character attack bonus and monster Armor Class tend to increase at roughly the same rate.) If a class feature grants extra accuracy or advantage, that needs to be factored that into their average damage per round. (A mere +1 bonus to hit can result in an 8% damage boost!)

2. I assume that every area attack hits two monsters.

3. I average a character's damage over the first three rounds of combat.

4. For my benchmarks, I built Players Handbook-only characters, and I leaned towards the simplest subclass available. When presented with a class option, I chose the bigger-damage option. For instance, I built a Great Weapon fighter instead of a Protection build. I didn’t use feats, since I’d like this test to focus on class damage, not on feat effectiveness.

Before we start crunching numbers, we have an important decision to make. Which fight shall we simulate: an easy battle in which the party is conserving their resources, or an all-out assault where the wizards are using their highest spell slots, the fighter is using Action Surge, and the paladin is smiting everything that moves?

Why not both? Some classes can go nova, throwing down a lot of damage in a big fight, and some classes do steady damage throughout multiple fights. We need to be able to account for both of these strengths. So for each of the classes I surveyed, I charted their "no-resources" damage (using only infinitely-repeatable attacks they can perform at will) and their "nova" damage (using up every spell slot and class feature in order to maximize the amount of damage that they can deal).

To start, I charted the four "basic" D&D classes: the fighter, wizard, cleric, and rogue, plus two more I was interested in: the paladin, which I've heard is overpowered in combat, and the ranger, about which I've heard the reverse.

Here's my chart, on which I track average damage per round for the six classes for levels one through twenty. The solid lines represent maximum nova damage, and the dotted lines represent at-will damage. The rogue only has one damage line, because it really has no limited nova powers.

classchart1.png

The first thing that jumps out at me is that most of the classes fall into one of two categories: high-nova/low-at will, or medium-nova/medium-at-will. The evoker wizard and life cleric can really lay down a lot of damage in a boss fight, but when they're not burning spell slots they plink away with low-damage cantrips. Meanwhile, the champion fighter is right down the strike zone on every pitch. It's always producing around the same amount of damage.

Overall, I like the design of these classes. If it was me, I'd differentiate cleric a bit more by having it do more at-will damage and less nova damage than the wizard, but that's just a minor quibble.

The next thing I notice is that people are right about the paladin and ranger. The nova paladin puts out almost twice as much damage as the nova ranger (and my ranger is trying hard, using bonus action spells every turn and Conjure Volley when it becomes available). And the paladin doesn't give up much to the ranger in any other category to make up for all that extra damage. The paladin's at-will damage is only a hair under the ranger's. The paladin has better armor, the same hit points and better healing abilities.

I know I'm cherry-picking a bit here since I've chosen classes I know to be badly balanced against each other, and I'm compounding this by sticking to the Players Handbook ranger when I know there are higher-damage options in Xanathar's Guide. Nevertheless, it's good to get a sense of what the combat-effectiveness extremes look like.

The last class I want to talk about here is the thief rogue. Since it doesn't have any nova capabilities, you can judge it as either an at-will or a nova attacker. As an at-will user, it's among the better ones, keeping pace with the champion fighter. But judged as a nova class, it's by far the worst. It gets left in the dust by the nova champion fighter. In fact, it gains a big edge over only one nova class—the ranger—and only at levels so high that they are seldom played.

It's worth noting that so far I've only graphed one subclass for each of the classes I've examined, and subclass can make a big difference. To illustrate that, here's the battlemaster fighter graphed onto the same chart.

classchart2.png

The battlemaster is a much better nova subclass than the champion! It almost challenges the paladin for the melee damage-per-round crown. If we accept the fighter as the "right down the middle" class who always produces medium damage, this widens the strike zone a great deal.

So now that we've squinted at some charts, what conclusions can we draw for our character class redesigns?

Lesson 1: Character damage increases linearly with level.

It's a bumpy ride along the way, especially at the first level of each tier (5, 11, and 17), but on the whole, the classes I've graphed do somewhere around 5 + level damage when not using any resources, and somewhere around 5 + (3.5 x level) when they're going all out.

More work is needed here. These patterns need to be borne out with an examination of the rest of the classes and subclasses, more sets of different assumptions (what if character level doesn't equal opponent CR? What if area attacks hit 4 enemies?), and, of course, double checking the math.

Lesson 2: We should try to stay true to the AGGREGATE average damage numbers instead of maintaining each class's current Damage Per Round.

I don't think there's anything sacred about the paladin being the best nova melee class and the backstabbing rogue underperforming everybody. I'd be happy to adjust the damage outputs of the specific classes to better match peoples' story expectations.

D&D doesn't need to be perfectly balanced - it's not a pvp game - but there shouldn't be classes that are much stronger or weaker in combat. Most peoples’ D&D games feature a fair amount of combat, and everyone deserves to have fun during that chunk of their week.

Lesson 3: Damage isn’t dealt in a spreadsheet.

This isn’t something I learned from this graphing exercise, but it’s a reminder not to take it too seriously. The circumstances of every battle are different. And that’s vital to remember when we’re designing class combat features. Depending on the location and the opponents, each class should have a chance to shine.

Wizards should excel against big groups of weak foes clustered within fireball range. Clerics should wreck undead. Rogues should deal the most damage when attacking from ambush. As for the rest of the classes… that’s where you come in.

For the people who have stuck with me through this long post, I have some questions for you. I'd love it if you posted your answers in the comments.
  • For each character class (or for a few classes that you have opinions about), what are the combat circumstances in which you'd expect them to excel?

  • Am I overthinking this? Does combat damage matter to you?

Continue reading...
 

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Paul Hughes

Paul Hughes

clearstream

(He, Him)
Without having delved into the details of the analysis, let me just express hope Level Up is designing for the extremes rather than the average.

That DPS comparisons really use what numbers that can be achieved rather than mediocre averages.

Level Up will lose a lot of its appeal if it's as easy to break as 5E. By that I mean that there are a few known ways to get stratospheric DPS. And not even that is the problem. The problem is that it makes it really difficult to consciously select any other build. The power differential is simply too great. This reduces the available options for any gamer with the slightest need to not make suboptimal choices.

The problem with 5E is that isn't really nearly as much variety as it seems to a casual observer.

And no, I do not want a game as locked down as Pathfinder 2 or 4th Edition. It's much better if you design cool classes that really work differently mechanically speaking. And then make sure to buff the inferior builds (and possibly nerf the bestest ones). Balance is important. But avoiding the crushing sense of sameyness and "your choices don't matter" that plagues 4E and PF2 is more important.

You don't have to build the balance into the core framework. You just need to spend a design pass at the end of creation to make sure options don't vary as much as they do in 5E.

Just like I hope Level Up will boost the spells that rate red or purple in the guides. Spells should not work the same, but the end output should be comparable, if you want casters to have a wide selection to choose between. That fire spells are always better than, say, acid spells is really getting old by now, after five editions of just the same. That doesn't mean acid spells should be remade as a long range spell to deal 8d6 damage in a 20 ft sphere.

It means the spell might keep doing damage over several rounds, or debilitate the target(s) in other ways, so a player might conclude the acid spell is better in some cases, while fire spells remain better in other cases. It means that a Black Dragon Sorcerer should not be clearly inferior to a Red Dragon Sorcerer for no good reason.
Well, this is also true. The risk with low-balling is to offer choices that are not choices, because they are overshadowed. I started out fearing that, then I thought about power-creep and considered if maybe there was safety in low-balling.

But no, I think LA has to offer powers that are competitive without being broken. For my tuppence the OP would retain their baseline model, but map another one onto it including foreseeable feats and magic items. GWM is foreseeable. A +1 to +2 attack/damage item in tiers 2 to 3 is too. Buffs are much harder to predict, but the main ones such as haste might be called out... then does the damage get attributed to the caster or the target?
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Well, this is also true. The risk with low-balling is to offer choices that are not choices, because they are overshadowed. I started out fearing that, then I thought about power-creep and considered if maybe there was safety in low-balling.

But no, I think LA has to offer powers that are competitive without being broken. For my tuppence the OP would retain their baseline model, but map another one onto it including foreseeable feats and magic items. GWM is foreseeable. A +1 to +2 attack/damage item in tiers 2 to 3 is too. Buffs are much harder to predict, but the main ones such as haste might be called out... then does the damage get attributed to the caster or the target?
I might clarify I'm talking more the total impact of an entire build - the end result.

Not the attractiveness of individual options. Cheers.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I think I'm missing something but cleric has four levelled spells cast.
Spiritguardians is concentration moves with you ten min duration, spiritual weapon 1min no concentration during which bonus action to trigger each round. The other two are 1 action instant nukes
 

Tinker-TDC

Explorer
Spiritguardians is concentration moves with you ten min duration, spiritual weapon 1min no concentration during which bonus action to trigger each round. The other two are 1 action instant nukes
I mean to say casting a levelled spell as a bonus action forbids casting one as an action. That would require over 3 turns
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I mean to say casting a levelled spell as a bonus action forbids casting one as an action. That would require over 3 turns
The spirit guardians spell & it's nonsense duration pretending to be anything other than "until you take a short rest or the gm says it ended" is the missing round that your looking for. It's better for baselines like this to be calculated based off a good degree of how people normally play rather than purely theoretical whiteroom alone. While spirit giardians is a great spell & one of the few deserving of the concentration tag it has, your noticing one of the problenatic elements of 5e's spell durations If you go back to look at past editions spell durations(among other things from spell to spell) scaled by caster level or were pegged to encounter/daily durations. Looking through 3.5 there is one spell with a ten minute duration
1601569318221.png

Frankly that's a reasonable use of "until the gm says so" because it's going to be a big help but not absolute immunity going forward or a significant fraction of a player's damage output. There were a lot of spells like aid, airwalk, & align weapon that were 1 minute/level making them into "probably just this fight but maybe another fight or two if we hustle until we might wonder if it's worth it" type spells along with a lot of buff spells that were 10 minute or 1 hour/level that would fit well in that wishy washy untrackable "until we rest or gm fiat" grey area. 5e missed how the game actually plays and went with flat nonscaling durations that were frequently rather untrackable for anything but a video game at best.
 

Stalker0

Legend
The spirit guardians spell & it's nonsense duration pretending to be anything other than "until you take a short rest or the gm says it ended" is the missing round that your looking for.

Unless your group just rushes through a dungeon without checking for traps and searching anything, than a 10 minute duration will absolutely come into play. Only something like hex when it gets to its 8 hour duration could be construed as "until you take a short rest".
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Unless your group just rushes through a dungeon without checking for traps and searching anything, than a 10 minute duration will absolutely come into play. Only something like hex when it gets to its 8 hour duration could be construed as "until you take a short rest".
Yes it should, but checking for traps, searching, & everything but 1 round=6seconds or $typeRest=$timePeriod are all durations of whatever the gm says they are so they don't & that was my point. A player can not track that duration and the gm has too much going on to be expected to track the ticking durations of every spell & ability cast/activated/used by each player in addition to running the game because the GM is human rather than a computer..... soooo it lasts until a rest or the GM says it ends due to some spells in 5e having bone headed durations.

Since you seem to disagree, care to explain to the class how bobSpellcaster can confidently track the passage of tie for a spell with a static 10 minute duration while the party is " checking for traps and searching anything" without admitting those thing all have a duration decided entirely at the whims of the gm?
 

Stalker0

Legend
Since you seem to disagree, care to explain to the class how bobSpellcaster can confidently track the passage of tie for a spell with a static 10 minute duration while the party is " checking for traps and searching anything" without admitting those thing all have a duration decided entirely at the whims of the gm?

You take a d10, and put it on the 10 face. Whenever the party does an activity worthy of 1 minute of time, the die goes down. Is this somewhat up to GM fiat? Of course it is, but so is a 1 minute spell duration or a 1 hour short rest.... tracking time has always been a bit dodgy in dnd... but that doesn't mean that a 10 minute spell duration is the same as an all day spell or an all dungeon spell, there is a difference...even if its partially up to the DM to decide how different it is.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
You take a d10, and put it on the 10 face. Whenever the party does an activity worthy of 1 minute of time, the die goes down. Is this somewhat up to GM fiat? Of course it is, but so is a 1 minute spell duration or a 1 hour short rest.... tracking time has always been a bit dodgy in dnd... but that doesn't mean that a 10 minute spell duration is the same as an all day spell or an all dungeon spell, there is a difference...even if its partially up to the DM to decide how different it is.
oh? you skipped over the part where bobSpellcaster knows how long it takes for the party or some other character to finish "checking for traps and searching anything". Please try to cite book & page numbers bobSpellcaster can reference & preferably do so with data that is adjusted for areas of various sizes, clutter, & maybe design.

It's not "partially" up to the gm, it's entirely up to the gm & 5e fails to consider that the gm might have things to do other than acting as a timekeeping service or tracking buff durations for pcs by not allowing spells to grow from "probably just an encounter or two" up to "long enough to not really make tracking it important" as characters grew.
 

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