Class Balance - why?

Class Balance: Why?

Why not? Classes can be distinct, flavorsome and totally different from each other. That doesn't mean they need to be unbalanced. Unbalanced would imply that one was better than the other.

The design goal that everyone at the table should be having fun and able to participate/contribute as meaningfully as any other player should be at the heart of any game system.

Its difficult to achieve without losing the flavor, but I'd bet my right foot that this design goal will not disappear from the core of 5e. Actually, I think the core is going to be so simple, imbalance will be nigh impossible.
 

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It sounds like your character isn't nearly as optimized as the game lets you be. The Wizards I've seen started with a 20 in their Int, then they put every point into it. They've gotten a +6 Int item as soon as possible, crafting it so they can get it cheaply. That increases the save DCs to the maximum on all their spells and gives them more spells per day. Then they've taken feats to increase their spell DCs, preferably 2 or 3 feats to do so. Then taken a PrC to increase it again.

That way, when you cast a Save or Die spell, the average enemy fails on less than a 16. That way, it isn't a special event when it happens, it's the majority of the time. And in order to make sure they die, you should prepare one of the Save or Die spells Quickened so you can cast 2 of them in the same round.

I remember one encounter we played where the DM pulled out this big nasty creature, who was CR 16. It was the first time he had ever run a monster that powerful before. He looked at its abilities and thought "This is insane, I've never DMed a monster this powerful before, but I think it's going to kill all of them." We were all around 13-14th level. Our 14th level Wizard cast a Quickened True Strike followed by a Disintegrate. It died on round one.

Most encounters in D&D take place against 1 or 2 big monsters. It sounds like your DM doesn't do that. Which favors the other characters until you switch spells. If he is sticking with the proper EL rules, then a number of enemies mean they are all lower CR, which means a lot less hitpoints and saves. In this sort of game it's best to switch to area of effect spells, to kill more than one at a time. Spells like Cloudkill, Fireball, and Glitterdust become your best friends.

How did they start with a 20 in intelligence from the very beginning? Even if you roll the highest you can get is an 18 an if you use point buy the highest you can buy is an 18.

My wizard I am playing now was made on a 32 point buy and at 12 level her intelligence just hit 20 and that is because I have an item that is +2 and I built her taking three levels of human paragon, If you have characters starting 1 level with 20s in their primary stat then right there is an issue that needs to be addressed. I won't allow it in my games my rule is no scores over 18 even with racial bonuses.

I am aware how metamagic works and I do use it and sometimes it is very effective and sometime the NPCs make their saves. That is one of the balancing factors of the game the ability to make saves and avoid spell damage.

Maybe my DMs are rare in the fact that they throw more than 1 or 2 NPCs at us and they also use terrain and climate conditions against us.

As for +6 items I rarely seen them in game except maybe for one or two at the highest levels.

I don't care if a +6 item can be made at lower levels it is not happening in my game I am the DM and I will not allow something that game breaking in that early. DMs need to be using a little common sense just because something is in the RAW does not mean it is in the RAI.

Any DM who is allowing characters in at first level with high stats and +6 items in so early are going to have an issue challenging the party following the CR as it is written.

This is not a balance issue it is a DM issue.
 

How did they start with a 20 in intelligence from the very beginning? Even if you roll the highest you can get is an 18 an if you use point buy the highest you can buy is an 18. [...] I won't allow it in my games my rule is no scores over 18 even with racial bonuses.

By the rules a 1st level grey/high/gold elf can have Int 20.
 

Too many of these wizards-do-it-all posts ignore the stupidity of the 5 minute workday. If the DM and the other party-members allow the 5-minute workday, then YES the wizard is overpowered. In reality, there should be no chance this happens. The DM should do everything in his power to prevent this from happening, and the other players should absolutely leave the wizard behind if he wants a nap after one room/battle in the dungeon/cavern/forest/etc.
This cannot be stopped. Not every adventure has some sort of time limit. In fact, most don't. I ran 3 or 4 different published adventures in a row in 3.5e, and not a single one of them had any sort of balancing factor for the 5 minute workday.

Well, one of them said that the dungeon should get reinforcements if the PCs leave them alone for a day. Which I had them get. But they could only hire 1 or 2 people a day, no where near enough to act as more than a road bump to the PCs. Even at 8th level. The adventure was written specifically so that no matter how much time the PCs get, the villains plans wouldn't be finished until they got to the end. Mainly because the villains plans involved the end of the world...and telling the PCs randomly on day 100 of their adventure that the world ended...little did they know wouldn't have been fulfilling for anyone.

One of the other ones was an exploration adventure into a dungeon populated by undead creatures who were there for 300 years, hiding away from the world and plotting things. But their plans would take another 5 or 10 years. They were hoping to go unnoticed. Still, there were few enough enemies in the dungeon that the PCs could teleport in, fight one encounter, then teleport out and rest over and over again without a problem.

Why should the player's leave the Wizard behind? They've seen how powerful his spells are. The last thing any group I've been in wants to do is leave their most powerful weapon behind. He's their star player. If he wants to rest after one combat...he gets his wish. Especially if he can pull out his big guns during the next combat. In fact, most of the groups I've been have encouraged the party to rest so that the Wizard could recover spells, even when the WIZARD didn't want to.

Most wizards I've played or played with haven't taken the replace-other-class spells, because they were a waste of resources if you already had a friend you traveled with who could perform the same function. As a matter of fact, it would be perfectly in character for a thief PC to watch a wizard cast Knock for the 3rd time in a week and shiv him in his sleep. :lol: Or at the very least, to go find a different adventuring party. What kind of tool wizard selects spells that kill team morale?
It's not about killing team morale. Most of the time when I prepared knock, silence and invisibility it was because I either knew we were going on a stealth mission...and the Rogue may be stealthy, but generally no one else is. Or I took it as a backup in case we ran into anything the Rogue couldn't succeed on. OR I took it because we didn't have a Rogue and we could simply replace one with spells instead.

Most wizards I've seen have had to contend with one or more of anti-magic doohickeys, silence, lack of spellbook/spell component pouch, magic-is-evil cultures, lack of sleep, super-long workdays, decoy targets to draw out spells, surprise encounters that haven't been prepared for, and a ton of other things that can EASILY "balance" them well through 12-15th level at the very least.
It doesn't really balance them, however. Most Wizards have enough spells at high levels with a 30 Int to easily handle surprise encounters and at least 3 or 4 encounters before running out of spells. Most wizards carefully consider their targets before wasting their biggest spell. Silence isn't an issue for most Wizards as there are a number of spells with no verbal components whose purpose it is to get them out of silence. Plus, they have good saves so the spell doesn't work directly on them. You need to cast it on some object and bring it close.

Either way, the rest are roleplaying disadvantages. You CANNOT balance combat power with roleplaying disadvantages. It doesn't work. It was tried in 2e. That was one of the major guiding principles of 3e. A DM can not and should not be expected to shove role playing disadvantages down the Wizards throat simply to keep them balanced with the rest of the party.

I ran a game in Greyhawk. For the most part the world is friendly to Wizards, there are very few anti-magic zones or items. I'm not going to suddenly change that because it's needed to keep a Wizard from overwhelming my campaign.

And this isn't "the DM fixing things" as all of these things are specifically spelled out in the rulebooks. You CANNOT have a D&D game without a DM. Even if you're playing a videogame, the developer is the "invisible DM". The encounters do not exist without a DM and therefore asking the DM to balance them is a perfectly valid requirement.
I'd like you to point out to me in the book where it says the DM is required to throw out decoy encounters and steal the Wizard's spellbook and spell components. This isn't spelled out in the book at all. You have a DM, but a DM can't predict everything, nor should be be expected to. Nor do I want to, as the DM spend extra effort to make an encounter simply because there is a Wizard in the group. I want to be able to plan out an encounter without knowing what characters are playing at all. I want to be able to look at the book and say "This adventure takes place near a volcano, I bet a battle against 4 Fire Elementals would be fun" without then later finding out that the Wizard has the ability to make the entire party immune to fire and therefore immune to all the damage in the encounter.

I shouldn't have to think "Wait...Wizards can make people immune to these things. I'll give them all wands of Dispel Magic so they can take down their defenses. The monsters should be able to threaten ANY party of their CR or lower.

If they can't, then the system needs to be fixed so they can.

...no rogue ever whined when he encountered plants or undead because they are expected to be a semi-common occurrence.
You do realize that so many people complained that the Rogue's sneak attack didn't work against undead and plants so that any campaign where a DM chose those as the primary monster was no fun to play in that they changed it in 4e so that you could sneak attack plants and undead just fine.

I have a friend who after 3 sessions in a row of fighting undead immediately retired his character because he was tired of feeling useless and switched to a Wizard instead.

Class drawbacks are a part of the balance. And the nebulous idea that drawbacks aren't fun and that we should never not have have fun is one of the things that is killing gaming. (See various save-or-die threads or videogame threads for further details)
Drawbacks are fun when they add an interesting complication. They aren't fun when they are crippling. For instance, having your +2 sword stolen and having to rely on a non magical sword for a session can be an interesting diversion. In that the total change in your character is a +2 bonus to hit.

Having your wife kidnapped in the game and having to go rescue her is a fun roleplaying draw back. Removing your ability to use all spells and reducing you to a fighter with a bad BAB and only the ability to wield a dagger is downright insulting and mean.

This goes full circle back to balancing a class with role playing disadvantages. In 2e, there was a Swashbuckler kit for Thieves. It gave you the THAC0 of a fighter of your level. In exchange, the DM was encouraged to make "trouble find the character". Things like husbands of the swashbucklers lovers, people looking for a challenge, etc.

The ability was an advantage with basically no disadvantage. Because there was no guarantee your DM would be able to fit the prescribed "trouble" into an adventure. When your party goes underground into the Vault of the Drow for 2 or 3 weeks straight without ever returning to the surface and that takes a year of real time to play out....well, sometimes the "trouble" never finds you for an entire campaign. And even when it does....the DM is unlikely to throw a threat big enough to kill you off. So, you beat the threat, have fun with the roleplaying and move on. Probably with some extra XP.

It's a win-win situation.
 


The adventures may not have it written in them specifically to stop the five minute adventure day but the DM has resources to make it hard for players to get away with this.

One way is to make it urgent that the players keep moving to stop something horrible from happening. They can take all the rest they want but the big bad is on a schedule and the end of the world as the characters know it is going to happen when they take their time.

If they are in a dungeon there is always the chance someone will notice that the PCs have been there and they will make preparations to make things harder for them in the future.

Unless the players are real smart about where they rest they will find themselves being attacked.

DMs have all the power here to control this.

My players have learned that if they try and pull this they will end up regretting it because some how it will come back and bite them in the butt.
 

I won't allow it in my games my rule is no scores over 18 even with racial bonuses.
Well, the rules say to point buy your stats and then apply racial bonuses on top. You can certainly fix that in your game, but it isn't the rules. Every wizard I ever played with started with a 20 Int, since it makes nearly no sense not to.

Maybe my DMs are rare in the fact that they throw more than 1 or 2 NPCs at us and they also use terrain and climate conditions against us.
It IS odd. The problem is that the CR and EL system breaks down the more enemies you use. For instance, if your party is level 12, then you want to throw an EL 15 encounter to challenge most parties. That means either 1 CR15 monster, 2 CR13 monsters, 4 CR11 monsters, or 8 CR9 monsters.

CR9 monsters generally have such low hitpoints, AC, saving throws and attack bonuses, that they can barely hit a proper level 12 party and die in 1 or two hits from parties of that level. So, if you follow the EL guidelines on how to make encounters, you are using extremely weak monsters if you use 8 of them in the same encounter. These are the encounters that is isn't worth wasting spells in.

I don't care if a +6 item can be made at lower levels it is not happening in my game I am the DM and I will not allow something that game breaking in that early. DMs need to be using a little common sense just because something is in the RAW does not mean it is in the RAI.
They cost 36,000 gp. If your DM is following the wealth by level guidelines that means that a level 9 character can buy one with ALL of his/her gold. However, the requirements to craft one are to be level 8 and 18,000 gp. Which you should be able to have with money to spare once you are level 11+. +4 items should be able to be crafted without a problem at level 8.

I'm normally in agreement that DMs should follow the RAI whenever possible. However, I don't see anything that even points to this not being RAI. It's a magic item in the DMG. It explains how to craft them. It isn't some magical abuse of the rules. And it was perfectly allowed and done in Living Greyhawk, the official campaign of WOTC.

By the time level 18+ came along, our characters had upgraded to magic items that gave +6 to all stats.

Any DM who is allowing characters in at first level with high stats and +6 items in so early are going to have an issue challenging the party following the CR as it is written.

This is not a balance issue it is a DM issue.
So...if a DM follows the rules in the book, then there is an issue with the DM? The CR system is designed to be used with the rules in the book. That includes all the stat items when you can afford them.

It's that the system allows people to become unbalanced. Which is a problem. I think the real issue is that a DM needs to work AROUND the rules in order to fix the system.
 

How did they start with a 20 in intelligence from the very beginning? Even if you roll the highest you can get is an 18 an if you use point buy the highest you can buy is an 18.

My wizard I am playing now was made on a 32 point buy and at 12 level her intelligence just hit 20 and that is because I have an item that is +2 and I built her taking three levels of human paragon, If you have characters starting 1 level with 20s in their primary stat then right there is an issue that needs to be addressed. I won't allow it in my games my rule is no scores over 18 even with racial bonuses.

I am aware how metamagic works and I do use it and sometimes it is very effective and sometime the NPCs make their saves. That is one of the balancing factors of the game the ability to make saves and avoid spell damage.

Maybe my DMs are rare in the fact that they throw more than 1 or 2 NPCs at us and they also use terrain and climate conditions against us.

As for +6 items I rarely seen them in game except maybe for one or two at the highest levels.

I don't care if a +6 item can be made at lower levels it is not happening in my game I am the DM and I will not allow something that game breaking in that early. DMs need to be using a little common sense just because something is in the RAW does not mean it is in the RAI.

Any DM who is allowing characters in at first level with high stats and +6 items in so early are going to have an issue challenging the party following the CR as it is written.

This is not a balance issue it is a DM issue.

So there is "not a balance issue" because you houseruled away "something that game breaking"?

Isn't this the textbook definition of the Oberoni Fallacy?
 

So I guess every wizard the other guy was talking about was an grey/high/gold elf?
Yes. They were the best race for Wizard. So all the Wizards were that race. Even the couple who decided to be another race for roleplaying reasons still started at 18. It doesn't hinder the power of the character that badly to lose 2 Int. It's a bonus spell or 2 and 1 point of DC on your spells.
 

The adventures may not have it written in them specifically to stop the five minute adventure day but the DM has resources to make it hard for players to get away with this.
True, but I shouldn't have to work extra hard simply because the rules create a situation that the players logically take advantage of. To me, it's the same as saying "Every time you rest, your DM has to pay you $10." Then, when the players rest over and over again, you can't blame them or threaten them to stop them. They won't care about the repercussions when they are rich.

One way is to make it urgent that the players keep moving to stop something horrible from happening. They can take all the rest they want but the big bad is on a schedule and the end of the world as the characters know it is going to happen when they take their time.
True. This is an idea that might work. However, I tried it once. I set a timeline of 1 month before the end of the world. I didn't tell the players exactly what the date was. I just had NPCs drop hints that the end of the world was coming and it could be any day now. Today...tomorrow...next week, who could tell?

I hoped that the players would at least keep moving. So, this caused them to fight 2...sometimes 3 battles a day. After all, they were in a rush, and that's triple the amount of encounters they would have done if they weren't in a rush. This adventure was huge. It reached the month deadline in game...and I had a choice. Either tell the players that the world ended and it was all their fault for taking too long. Torn up all the character sheets and told someone else to DM for a while(since all I had been doing was prepping the rest of this adventure, which was supposed to take another 6 months of real time)....or, I could simply let the date pass and pretend like it had taken longer due to complications. And therefore allow them to complete the adventure.

I chose the latter. Which let them get off without any real disadvantage for resting after only a couple of fights each day. But it was better than ending the game.

Unless the players are real smart about where they rest they will find themselves being attacked.
That's why they always teleported to a city as far away as possible from the enemies...to make sure nothing happened to them. Even then, I had someone steal their extra stuff from their inn room. They tracked them down and killed them, getting everything back. Their Wizard used spells to scry on their stuff.

A couple of times, they used spells like Rope Trick to hide themselves in the middle of the dungeon without any real trace.

DMs have all the power here to control this.
This is only half true. The DM is under restrictions as well. I refuse to metagame up a solution to the 15 minute work day. Each time I have the NPCs come up with a brilliant idea that they would never have simply because I want to get back at the players...I sacrifice a little bit of my integrity.
 

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