Class Balance - why?

Yeah, the reason they stop at that level is because the system doesn't handle high levels well. Mainly because of spellcasters and their ability to ruin any adventure you come up with.

Pretty big assumption. To pull a page from Aldarc's book, how do you know this? Perhaps it's because higher level adventures (or even ends of the path) don't sell as well. Maybe it's because the cumulative effect of 15+ level of choices in character building make it much harder to create an adventure that works for all groups. You can say either without the implication that the game breaks down at high levels or spellcasters ruin adventures.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

How? Only by engaging action resolution systems that do not depend upon PC stats - what we might call "free roleplaying", or, more pejoratively, "mother may I".

There are things to be said for and against free roleplaying and GM adjudication, but a game in which that is the main source of agency for a player is, in my view, well-positioned to head in one of two directions: (i) overwhelming GM force with the players mostly along for the ride; or, (ii) balance of power issues as the players - particularly those without good stats on their sheets - fight with one another, and with the GM, about the direction of the game.

The issue has nothing to do with "tactical wargaming". It is about the balance of power over the game among the players, and between the players and the GM.

For example, reaction rolls in AD&D aren't "tactical wargaming", but depending how a particular GM uses them, and how that GM adjudicates attempts by players to "free roleplay" around them, putting a high score in CHA may be worthwhile, or a complete waste of time.


Again, I think focusing on combat is a red herring. An RPG can have mechanical action resolution systems, and thereby give rise to issue of mechanical balance, outside of the combat arena. Consider the numerous debates about invisibility vs hide/move silently, for example.


I agree with the second part of the first sentence - the issue here is not about combat, but about action resolution mechanics. It only looks to be about combat because, as a purely contingent historical matter, D&D has had more robust combat resolution mechanics than other sorts of action resolution mechanics.

Your third sentence also, for me, perfectly frames the issue - if the GM is allowed to wield a lot of power, and the players accept this, then free roleplaying can compensate for mechanical weakness. But many groups do not want to play with the GM having that sort of power - and, as I said above, a game based around overwhelming GM power is frought with the potential for conflicts over that power.

This is true, but I think is just a prelude to the real issue, which is "can free roleplaying compensate for, or override, differences in player agency created by the distribution of purely mechanical power".

I agree that this is the issue, except that "party/story" component have a narrow meaning here, because they relate back to the DM using his/her power to meld the party together and drive the story. Whereas some groups like to play in such a way that the players meld the party together and drive the story. Which requires player agency that is, to some extent at least, independent of the GM - not necessarily independent of GM adjudication, but consisting in more than just the power to ask the GM for a favour.



That is one possibility, but not the only one, and for many players not their preferred one.

As a GM, for example, I like my power to be clearly demarcated and constrained. I don't want to be responsible for making the game fun in the way you describe. I want to play a game that will take care of that itself, so I can concentrate on what I like doing as a GM, which is setting up situations for the players to engage via their PCs, and adjudicating the resolution of those engagments.

Again, this is one way to play the game. It's not the only way.


This isn't quite how I would describe my own approach to GMing, but it sets out one good reason as to why "more GM power, invoked and applied via free roleplaying" is not a universally viable solution to problems of mechanical imbalance.



These are both closer to my approach to GMing, and further illustrate why the "GM power" approach to action resolution isn't universally applicable.


This is another claim that is not universally true. In some playstyles - those in which the GM has strong authority over framing scenes/situations - the GM does not need to accept that the players will find ways around carefully crafted encounters. (Of course, in engaging those encounters things may turn out very differently from what the GM, or anyone else, expected. Situational authority is quite different from plot authority and railroading. But now we're not talking about bypassing an encounter but resolving it.)

I personally like using a fairly strong degree of situational authority as a GM, and don't want the game to assume unreflectively, and as a default, that the players will in fact enjoy such authority to an equal or greater extent.


I think that you are running together situational authority and plot authority. It's not as if a sandbox is the only alternative to a railroad. Instead you let the players direct the story, based on the situations that the GM frames. Some games have fancy mechanics that oblige the GM to frame situations in such a way as to incorporate player theamtic/story concerns etc, but even absent such mechanics a GM can be pretty confident that if they frame crappy scenes, one way or another their players will let them know.

Mostly I agreed with your post, but I don't think this is fair. [MENTION=6675987]Dellamon[/MENTION] is not saying that a good GM can fix the rules. S/he is saying (i) that the action resolution system has (potentially) two components: the mechanics, and the exercise of mechanically unmediated narrative power ("free roleplaying"); and (ii) that when this mechanically unmediated narrative power is in the hands of the GM, it can compensate for or override the imbalances one sees when looking purely at the mechanical elements of action resolution.

I'm not a big fan of that sort of system, for the reasons I've given - it is in my view a recipe for dysfunction, either in the form of dictatorial GMing or balance-of-power conflicts (and I've seen both in AD&D games, especially 2nd ed ones). But to advocate it is not to commit a fallacy.



I see these posts as evidence - from both player and GM perspective - of how a "GM power" approach has an inherent (but not inevitable) tendency to push in the direction of balance-of-power problems.


But Dellamon is advocating a different approach - one in which the players are free to focus on archetype etc because the GM will ensure that their PC is effective. I'm not myself arguing for that playstyle, but given it's historical importance in RPGing (including D&D, and especially I would say from the mid-80s through to at least the early 90s) I think it's important to be clear about it.


Maybe. But if a group are happy to cede the GM the necessary power, and are not particularly mathematically inclined, than maybe not. I think it's hard to generalise about this.


I don't agree with this. The issue of the way in which the mechanics should distribute power among the players is not just an issue for "an obnoxious group of players". It is relevant to any game in which player agency is at the forefront, because players exercise that agency by wielding their power. [MENTION=12401]Belphanior[/MENTION] gives a nice example, and I have no reason to think that s/he is obnoxious as either a player or a GM.
LOL, my comment as made in response to "crazy" absurd situatios. I agree with most of what you say here. Balance is important. I dont plan for a game to accomdoate craziness, i plan for a game to accomodate balance.

It's the reason I dont play too many american made games. Random is just not fun or challenging. The same character, same build and one 5th level guy had 10 hit points and the other 50 hit points. There's something wrong with that system.
 

Pretty big assumption. To pull a page from Aldarc's book, how do you know this? Perhaps it's because higher level adventures (or even ends of the path) don't sell as well. Maybe it's because the cumulative effect of 15+ level of choices in character building make it much harder to create an adventure that works for all groups. You can say either without the implication that the game breaks down at high levels or spellcasters ruin adventures.

Most designers, writers and players have said the game breaks (at least 3.5) over a ceratin level.

This is contributed to crazy amount of attacks and damage. Again, the problem with the system now is that randomness scales along with level, so for some reason a game balanced at level 1 steadly loses that balance the more random inputs you place in. By 20 its all 20d6, 5 attacks and various armors to boost you to +30. YOu're a god at that point.

That's not how fiction usually works for thesecharacters and it makes it feel that level 20 is a god level instead of just an accomplished adventure.
 

The opposite is also true for me if I had to change everything I find that makes 4 unplayable for my group I would find it more work then I want do.

You realize that if it was a fact that most people find 3E magic to be over powered and unplayable Pathfinder would not be doing so well.
... except that most games don't make it to even the mid-level range where casters start being seriously overpowered, let alone high levels, and Pathfinder casters are overpowered in the exact same ways casters are overpowered in all non-4e editions of D&D so they're used to it.
 

That's not how fiction usually works for these characters, and it makes it feel that level 20 is a god level instead of just an accomplished adventure.
Level 20 is god level though, isn't it? If the game had simply presented levels 1 through 10, would it have been a better game? (Or just levels 1 through 6, as the E6 folks suggest?)
 

One of the biggest reason I have read of why people like 4E is because it balances the magic classes with the mundane classes. The term wizards and muggles is used by 4E players to describe 3E.

I have read so many threads on how to nerf the magic system in 3E by people who don't like it. I have read how a lot of 4E players feel that this was accomplished by the 4E rule set.

Now Pathfinder did not make major changes to the way magic works I have heard may 4E players say that Pathfinder did nothing to fix what they perceive as a broken magic system.

On the Pathfinder forums I rarely read threads about how to nerf the magic system so that leads me to conclude that most Pathfinder players don't feel that the magic system is broken.

Are there people who play Pathfinder who play it for other reasons and may think that the magic system is broken sure. They may like other things. The same as 4E players who say that yes they find the classes bland but they like a lot of other things.

Good points. In other words, there is a huge gulf between the roleplayers who like (what I perceive as) god-like classes and their muggle henchmen, and the roleplayers who prefer an even playing field.

Which is why I think this whole attempt at Fifth Edition is doomed to failure. People who like balance already have Fourth Edition (which admittedly needs some fine-tuning and revision). People who like 3.5 already have Pathfinder (which is the fine-tuning and revision of 3.5).

Unbalanced classes would be a deal-breaker for me. As would a system whose mechanics are obscure and difficult to weigh. I want a transparent and fair system for classes, feats, powers and themes. (I also want those more fine-tuned from even Fourth Edition: there are many weak and useless paragon paths, powers, feats and even classes liek the Binder and Seeker in Fourth.)
 

I don't want to get into the railroading debate again. Suffice to say, I don't believe railroading is bad. Also, nearly every thing a DM does is "railroading" by at least one definition of railroading.

I don't believe the situation is railroading, it doesn't force the PCs to do anything. It only limits their options. They have the option to talk to the bridge keeper or they have the option to turn around and go back. They have the option to trick the bridge keeper into letting them past or bribing him or negotiating or threatening him or complimenting him until he agrees. They can take the long way around the pit, finding a way that doesn't involve crossing the bridge. They can kill him and walk over the bridge.

All I want to do is limit their ability to bypass my NPC entirely.

This is all fine and dandy until your players find the loophole in your campaign that you didn't notice that allows them to skip 6 months of storyline you were planning for your campaign. Especially, if you wrote up extensive notes and maps, along with made NPCs and planned out monster encounters for that time.

I've had it happen 3 or 4 times now. Each and every time I had to resort to an Out of Character discussion with the party about how I didn't foresee them having that ability or trying that tactic and that it will cause too much damage to the whole campaign if they take that action. So much so that the storyline will be no fun for me, as the DM. And I refuse to run a game that isn't fun for me in addition to the players. So, I gave them 2 options...the only ones I could come up with: Take their action back or have someone else come up with a campaign and spend the effort to run it.

They took it back.

Luckily, I haven't had to have that conversation with anyone since 4e came out.

It's not about taking away free will, as I mention above. It's the difference between running a cop game in modern day earth...and an equivalent game where one of the characters is superman.

In the first game you can decide in advance that the villain killed the victim and is hiding out in a house on the south part of town. You can anticipate that the group will track down clues, talk to witnesses, eventually track the perp to his house, and have a shootout as the perp has a gun. But that the perp had an accomplice who there is no evidence of in the house or alley..so he'll be around as a villain for next time. You can then safely draw a map for the shootout, create stats for the perp and his accomplice, create the personalities of the witnesses as well as the gang member who knows what the perps name is and even start thinking about what kind of crimes the accomplice will do in the next adventure.

In the 2nd game, superman simply flies around the early until he reverses time to the point where the murder happens. Then stops the murder from ever occurring and catches the perp and his accomplice at the same time. You then have to throw out everything you had planned to do.

Saying "I don't want superman in my game, and I'm not going to allow it" isn't railroading anyone or taking away their choice. It's saying "I'd like to play a game that doesn't have to deal with the abilities of superman. I don't want every villain to have to carry kryptonite in their pockets just to have a game that I can keep some control over."

And that's what you have to do with a Wizard around. Every villain has to have the resources to block scrying, teleporting, death magic, invisibility, flying, dimensional traveling magic, and so one and so forth. Put it all together and it might as well be Kryptonite with how rare it SHOULD be, but how common it turns out to be, simply so that the Wizard doesn't have to be any less powerful.


Also, not sure where you're getting this one. The pathfinder version of teleport AND the 3.5e version are exactly the same in this case: You can teleport yourself and one extra person per 3 caster levels. A party of 4 can be teleported at 9th level(12th for a 5 person group). And by the time you are 12th level, with the bonus spell from a high stat, you can cast 4 of them a day, so you can go back and get another 4 people if your group is larger than that. I'm not talking about Epic games. I'm talking about 12-18th level games.

We had a wizard who was 14th level who used to teleport back to his house each night from the dungeon just so that his butler could make him a home cooked meal in the morning. We had 6 players in our group, so he regretted that he couldn't bring us all back. But he assured us that he'd bring us some scones.


Yeah, the reason they stop at that level is because the system doesn't handle high levels well. Mainly because of spellcasters and their ability to ruin any adventure you come up with.

I cannot give you any more experience points just now, so I will just quote you for truth in the hopes that people will understand.

Mind you, there are many who want the games you describe. They want to play Zeus and the Olympians and their mortal servants. I just hope Fifth Edition does not accommodate them. Unity will not happen, alas.
 

Mind you, there are many who want the games you describe. They want to play Zeus and the Olympians and their mortal servants. I just hope Fifth Edition does not accommodate them. Unity will not happen, alas.

Can we cut the veiled insults here? There are plenty of people who don't care about mechanical balance because there are other ways to balance games, including finding something worthwhile for everyone to do or spotlight balance.

Or should we talk about 4e fans as people more interested in playing CopyCat and the Duplicates rather than real fantasy archetypes? Pejorative characterizations work both ways.
 

They want to play Zeus and the Olympians and their mortal servants. I just hope Fifth Edition does not accommodate them.
I see nothing wrong with playing Olympians and their servants, as long as the game doesn't present a super-powerful 1st-level Olympian as an equal choice against a very mortal 1st-level servant.

Also, we have to remember that D&D's notion of "powerful" isn't typical or universal. For instance, a game like Mutants & Masterminds can revolve around superheroes who do not have the wide portfolio of powers of a D&D wizard (or 4E Fighter). They have higher numbers, but not higher complexity.
 

Can we cut the veiled insults here? There are plenty of people who don't care about mechanical balance because there are other ways to balance games, including finding something worthwhile for everyone to do or spotlight balance.

Or should we talk about 4e fans as people more interested in playing CopyCat and the Duplicates rather than real fantasy archetypes? Pejorative characterizations work both ways.
SOrry, i carry a card as a long time pro 3.5 veteran in the war. I still look at 4e folk suspiciously in the grocery store and I won't let my kids go to school with them.

I don't think balance means copycat, it means making sure that a 4th level character can only do 3d6 damage a turn, no matter what they are. How that damage is done, where its done and how its issued out is completely up to the mechanics and can be quite diverse.

I have no problem with god games, love mutants and mastermind. I think a game works right if its the whole game for the basic core of the game. I mean, you've never played monopoly after 4 hours he game turned into DIe Macher. No, it stays monpoly. So why does DnD suddenly change games after level 14 or 15 and starts getting power creepy about 12.

I get the emotional inestment that everyone has. No one wants a dnd without their timestops or meteor storms and such. And I guet that iconic spells should be there. But tone them down and balance them with other abilities. It's not about everyone shining, its about everyone having an equal chance to play and have a good time.
 

Remove ads

Top