Class being penalized for doing its thing?

[RigaMortus2]

Perhaps resources (like healing spells) will be "used up" when you are not in battle. But when you are in battle, a Cleric can heal 1/round. Of course, then they would need rules to define when an encounter begins, and when it ends (which they don't right now). This has never really been a problem for our group. That is what the DM is for. They determine when the encounter begins and ends. But I can see the rules lawyers now saying how it is not defined...

 

[Someone]

Or they could use the current mechanics of healing up to half max hit points with unlimited abilities.

 

[pawsplay]

In fiction, a spell caster runs out of magic when it is dramatically necessary. In a D&D expedition, it is seldom dramatically necessary or desirable for them to run out of magic.

First of all, in regard to my quote, mages in Vance's fiction can prepare only a handful of spells at a time, and only one copy of each spell. Thus, for instance, a character can cast the excellent prismatic spray once, a concern over and above any dramatic necessity.

Second, it is often dramatic or desirable for mages to run out of spells, particularly if you wish to convey the idea magic isn't free or unlimited, or if you believe mages of less than archmage power, like their literary counterparts, should occasionally solve problems with something other than a spell.

 

[Mortellan]

I've read the thread and I'm still confused. How are tanks penalized?

 

[pawsplay]

I've read the thread and I'm still confused. How are tanks penalized?

By running out of hit points, or worry about conserving hit points. Therefore, in 4e, tanks will be given a small amount of unlimited hit points they can use every round.

 

[Mortellan]

As if giving them higher hit dice and typical higher constitution bonuses than other classes aren't enough? How about scaling back on the power creep of feats? I know builds in my 3.5 game that can dish out ridiculous amounts of damage. More hit points is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

 

[Wik]

I didn't mean this thread to get turned into another D&D4 speculation discussion. I was asking about how classes in BD&D, AD&D1, AD&D2, and D&D3 were "penalized" for doing their things.


As for whether people would play a strictly-healing cleric, I've seen players of a FPS computer game specifically clamor for such a thing.

I used to play Day of Defeat---WWII unit combat---and there was always a call by some players for the developers to add a medic class. There were people who specifically wanted to play a support class, who did nothing more than run around patching up wounded comrades. That sounded like the most boring FPS character class ever. But I could play one in a table-top RPG.

Quasqueton

Ha. That reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother.

We were talking about a Halo FPS game that would have 100+ players in it, as a purely hypothetical thing. I said something along the lines of "I would just fly a Pelican, and move other players around".

In those types of games, I *love* being the support guy. People love you for it. When I play Halo 2 on Live, my favourite thing to do is be the guy driving the warthog when the guy next to you has the flag. Sure, he gets the glory of getting the point, but it couldn't be done without you.

In our current D&D game, I'm a mage that steals the spotlight from time to time. But mostly, I cast Haste, Bull's Strength, or other buffs on my allies. I like the support roles, what can I say?

 

[Victim]

As if giving them higher hit dice and typical higher constitution bonuses than other classes aren't enough? How about scaling back on the power creep of feats? I know builds in my 3.5 game that can dish out ridiculous amounts of damage. More hit points is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

As you mentioned, it's easy to do crazy amounts of damage. Improving defensive aspects relative to offense seems like a much needed change.

 

[Father of Dragons]

First of all, in regard to my quote, mages in Vance's fiction can prepare only a handful of spells at a time, and only one copy of each spell. Thus, for instance, a character can cast the excellent prismatic spray once, a concern over and above any dramatic necessity.

And I will note that in The Dying Earth, Excellent Prismatic Spray was an autokill against someone without a defensive amulet or counterspell -- no saving throw or hitpoints here! It's a pretty different situation. Mind you, I like Vance's writing a lot, but he's pretty much su generis when it comes to his treatment of magic.

Second, it is often dramatic or desirable for mages to run out of spells, particularly if you wish to convey the idea magic isn't free or unlimited, or if you believe mages of less than archmage power, like their literary counterparts, should occasionally solve problems with something other than a spell.

I think you are carrying this argument too far here -- just because a mage doesn't run out of all of their magic does not imply that they can use their powers to an unlimited extent. Myself, I like the True20 magic system where the more you use your powers, the more likely you are to be fatigued, but there isn't really a hard and fast limit. That matches most stories I've read a lot better than most other magic systems. Personally, I feel is always a good idea to leave a player interesting things to do, and under the current system, it can be pretty painful to run 1st and 2nd level Wizards.

 

[Greg K]

edit: removed by poster. I really want to voice my disatisfaction with the WOTC design team and their take on d20 and design goals compared to why I like True20 and Green Ronin. Holding tongue.