Class concepts that you just can't work out neatly in DnD

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've never understood the attitude of 'not only do I want classes, I actively DON'T want a system for designing new ones that mesh with the ones I already have incorporated into the PHB or even the DMG.'

You don't like point-buy systems? Fine. But why do you care if you have pre-done classes that were created with a point-buy, and the DMG also includes the point-buy used to make them? It's one of the very, very few areas of gaming where both sides can be 100% happy with a system.

 

[Crothian]

And, yes, like it or not, there are many gamers who simply couldn't handle such a system for any number of reasons. You didn't point a finger at anyone in particular, and there's really no justification for anyone to get defensive about your comment.

Exactly. I have and liked it yet have chosen not to use it for my own gaming group. They just aren't ready for this type of character creation and advancement yet.

 

[pawsplay]

Then it's a darn good thing we don't play at the same table then, eh? Because when *I* play a character roleplaying game, I want to play the character *I* want to play, not worry about whether the concept might tick off another player because it's not what he expects.

Obviously, the basic rules work for you. As I said (or implied), I think they're unnecessarily limiting.

I think it's a mistake to think you have some inalienable right to play a character who is useless, evil, from the wrong continent, anachronistic, whatever. Roleplaying is a group endeavor. If someone wanted to play a half-elf commoner, I would totally vote against allowing that.

 

[pawsplay]

I've never understood the attitude of 'not only do I want classes, I actively DON'T want a system for designing new ones that mesh with the ones I already have incorporated into the PHB or even the DMG.'

You don't like point-buy systems? Fine. But why do you care if you have pre-done classes that were created with a point-buy, and the DMG also includes the point-buy used to make them? It's one of the very, very few areas of gaming where both sides can be 100% happy with a system.

Point buy and class-based systems each have their virtues. Using point buy to build them has the same problems as any point buy system, whereas the final results are as limiting as any system where you can design new classes. It's a worst of both worlds kind of thing, to me.

Imagine, for instance, you created a point buy for a wizard variant, that is exactly like a wizard but has Hide as a class skill. You know how many points that is worth? Nothing. Because a wizard who wants to hide is just going to turn himself invisible. Hiding is not really in keeping with the whole magical study thing, and so a spellcasting class with Hide ought to differ in some meanginful way from the basic wizard. A wizard is basically a dedicated student of magic, so any strong skills in mundane stealth suggest, you know, maybe he's not purely a wizard at all.

How about a spell-like ability to use dancing lights at your class level 1/day? To a wizard, that's a cantrip. To a fighter, it means, hello, I can craft magic items if I take the correct feats.

 

[Crothian]

I would totally vote against allowing that.

You guys vote on who can play what?

 

[pawsplay]

You guys vote on who can play what?

Ordinarily, no. However, it could always be arranged.

 

[Barak]

I've never understood the attitude of 'not only do I want classes, I actively DON'T want a system for designing new ones that mesh with the ones I already have incorporated into the PHB or even the DMG.'

You don't like point-buy systems? Fine. But why do you care if you have pre-done classes that were created with a point-buy, and the DMG also includes the point-buy used to make them? It's one of the very, very few areas of gaming where both sides can be 100% happy with a system.

Because point-buy systems are -never- fully balanced with a class-based system, no matter how it's designed. So characters built using point-buy will either be too weak compared to class-based, or have the potential of easily being much better.

Edit: Oh and my problem with Crothian's statement was the "many D&D players", which implies that most D&D players couldn't "handle" it, whatever that possibly can mean.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Ever want to play a character who studies magic and has a natural empathy for animals ... but doesn't want all the nature-lovin' baggage of a druid or ranger class?

Play a ranger or druid. They don't have to love nature; they can just take advantage of it.

How about a paladin of a chaotic gawd?

There's variant paladins in UA, including CG and CE variants. Or play a Fighter/Cleric.

Yeah, all sorts of character class concepts can be jury-rigged via multiclassing and/or special DM-approved feats and home-ruled ability swaps. Heck, if your brain just needs the rule published to make it feel "official," there are dozens of books you could buy to put together all the necessary parts -- very much like Frankenstein's monster, a little bit here, a little bit from over there.

But wouldn't it be nice to have that class-designing flexibility incorporated in the rules from the git-go? To be able to pick from a menu of class abilities that best define what you envision for the career, and put a title on it yourself -- for example, the knowledge and social skills suite, plus bardic lore and maybe a few diviner spell-like abilities, without bardic music, and call it a "Rumormonger" class all the way from 1st to 20th level?

I don't know why we don't already have a "fourth edition" that deconstructs the classes so we can put together what we want without the fuss.

((The first person who answers along the lines of, "So WotC can make more money via convoluted class product lines," gets a 10d6 fireball in his pants.))

Getting rid of classes to make it "pick whatever you want" would make it not D&D anymore.

Geoff.

 

[WayneLigon]

...exactly like a wizard but has Hide as a class skill. You know how many points that is worth? Nothing. Because a wizard who wants to hide is just going to turn himself invisible.

Hide can be used any number of times a day for as long as you want. Invisibility? Once, maybe twice for a minute or so. How often do people memorize multiple uses of such a spell, if they don't know beforehand that they'll need to sneak around? I'd think very few do.

Magic is no substitute for skills, at all.

 

[Driddle]

I think it's a mistake to think you have some inalienable right to play a character who is useless...

There's no mistake. A player gets to PLAY the character of his choice.
Whether you think it's a worthless choice is a matter of (faulty) personal opinion.

The group decides what an individual plays? How incredibly ridiculous!