D&D 4E Class-free 4E

[Ambush Bug]

I've been tinkering with ways to remove character classes from D&D - or at least to make them optional - without destroying the balance of the game. The mechanical precision of 4E makes it a more tempting target than previous editions. If anyone's interested, here's the character creation system I'm currently working on. You can use it to make characters very similar to the PHB classes, or characters that match your own concept. Any thoughts would be appreciated - other than "Why don't you like character classes?" That's a forked thread...


Each class feature and mechanical detail is purchased with what, in a fit of genius, I'm calling "character points" or CP. Every character has 18 CP to spend at creation; unspent CP are lost. Every character also starts with the following:

• Proficiency with cloth armor and all simple melee weapons
• 2 points to add to Fort, Ref, and/or Will defenses as desired
• 10 starting HP and +4 per level
• 6 healing surges
• 3 trained skills of their choice

Your 18 character points can be spent on options from the following list. Any unspent points are lost. Note that some options have prerequisites, or exclude you from making other choices. A character may only pick one option each from the Damage, Marking, and Healing categories.

EDIT 7/31/08: A character with a Healing feature gets +1 healing surge. A character with a Marking feature gets +3 healing surges. These bonus surges stack.



OPTION/COST

• +2.5 starting HP and +1 HP per level: 1 (may select twice; half-points round down)
• 1 additional trained skill: 2 (may select three times)
• Proficient w/all light armor: 1
• Proficient w/all heavy armor: 1 (must be proficient w/all light armor)
• Proficient w/all shields: 1
• Proficient w/military melee weapons: 1
• Proficient w/simple ranged weapons: 1
• Proficient w/military ranged weapons: 1 (must be proficient w/simple ranged weapons)
• Hunter's Quarry: 5 (Damage)
• Sneak Attack: 5 (Damage)
• Warlock's Curse: 5 (Damage)
• Combat Challenge: 5 (Marking)
• Divine Challenge: 5 (Marking)
• Healing Word: 5 (Healing)
• Lay On Hands: 2 (Healing)
• Inspiring Word: 5 (Healing)
• Arcane Implement Mastery: 3
• Cantrips: 5
• Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune: 1
• Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle: 1
• Channel Divinity: Divine Strength: 1
• Channel Divinity: Turn Undead: 2
• Combat Leader: 3
• Combat Superiority: 2
• First Strike: 1
• Healer's Lore: 2
• Prime Shot: 2
• Ritual Casting: 2 (grants the Ritual Casting feat, plus two 1st-level rituals of choice and a ritual book - see also Spellbook)
• Rogue Weapon Talent: 1
• Shadow Walk: 3
• Wizard Training: 1 (you must buy this option in order to use any wizard powers; it serves no other function)
• Spellbook: 5 (Grants bonus daily and utility powers of your choice as described. If character has the Ritual Casting feat, the spellbook also serves as a ritual book. It has one 1st-level ritual of your choice, plus any bonus rituals from the Ritual Casting feature, and gains new rituals as described.)
• Commanding Presence: 2 (only one option may be selected)
• Eldritch Pact: 3 (only one pact may be selected)
• Fighter Weapon Talent: 3 (only one bonus type may be selected)
• Rogue Tactics: 2 (only one option may be selected)
• Ranger Fighting Style: Archer: 1 (only one ranger fighting style may be selected)
• Ranger Fighting Style: Two-Blade: 2 (only one ranger fighting style may be selected)

*whew* After all that, powers are much easier. Choose your character's powers from any class list. Mike Mearls thinks it's okay.

 

[SSquirrel]

How much does it cost to buy feats? Have you taken a look at this point buy design for 3E/AE? http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82858&highlight=Dr+Spunj's+classless

Might give that a quick browse for some point comparisons. I'll try to look this over a bit mroe in depth later, but it looks like a very nice start

 

[fuindordm]

Looks interesting.

Aside from quibbling over point values, I might suggest maintaining a distinction between power sources as follows:

Martial training: 2 CP (provides access to exploits)
Arcane training: 2 CP (provides access to spells)
Divine training: 2 CP (provides access to prayers)

Arcane training replaces "Wizard training", of course. You might bump up
the starting CP by one to compensate for the higher cost, but I think
each access should cost at least two so that "multiclassing" still trades
off power for versatility.

Ben

 

[Ambush Bug]

How much does it cost to buy feats? Have you taken a look at this point buy design for 3E/AE? http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82858&highlight=Dr+Spunj%27s+classless

Might give that a quick browse for some point comparisons. I'll try to look this over a bit mroe in depth later, but it looks like a very nice start

Thanks. I've looked at DrSpunj's system before, and I think it's an impressive piece of work. As for feats, right now I'm not adding rules for buying/selling feats with CP. One of my goals was to replicate the PHB classes, and their treatment of feats made that... problematic. Consider that every trained skill, every armor proficiency, and every weapon proficiency equal one feat. This gives four classes (fighter, paladin, ranger, warlord) a huge advantage in feat-equivalence over the other classes. Correcting for that takes more math than I wanted to include so far.

That said, any suggestions? I'd love 'em.

Looks interesting.

Aside from quibbling over point values, I might suggest maintaining a distinction between power sources as follows:

Martial training: 2 CP (provides access to exploits)
Arcane training: 2 CP (provides access to spells)
Divine training: 2 CP (provides access to prayers)

Arcane training replaces "Wizard training", of course. You might bump up
the starting CP by one to compensate for the higher cost, but I think
each access should cost at least two so that "multiclassing" still trades
off power for versatility.

Ben

Please, quibble! That's why I put this on the Internet.

I had an earlier draft that did something like what you suggest; it's buried in this forum. But as I sat there deconstrucing the balance of various class features and making goofy cross-source builds, I decided to blow the whole thing wide open and see what happened. Given the way that powers key off of specific attributes, and given how difficult it is to excel in more than 2 attributes, I haven't figured out a character build yet that seems to break balance, even if it dips into all three source types.

Which is not to say it can't happen, just that I haven't done it. Is that why you suggest separating power sources - keeping balance?

 

[DeadPlatypus]

Some classes have more than 6 healing surges, you need to put that in as well. Also, I'd like to see characters that don't automatically have proficiency with all simple weapons, and I'd like to see characters with proficiency in superior weapons.

 

[Mercutio01]

I wanted to note that I took your post and pasted it at DragonAvenue.com with a 1st level build. I gave you credit for the post, but I can't trust ENWorld right now. I've lost at least 4 posts to time-outs and I'm lucky if it loads for me even half the times I visit. I'll be surprised if this post makes it through.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Hmm

Alright, with 18 points I can have -

(asuming Human with bonus feat, making 2 feats available at first level)

First Strike 1
Spellbook 5
Sneak Attack 5
Wizard Training 1
Hunter's Quarry 5

This means that when I win initiative (First Strike), my spells will do 1d6 with Hunter's Quarry (w/Lethal Hunter) and 2d8 for Sneak Attack (w/ Backstabber) on the first round, not including the damage for the power.

While I do like the idea of class-free 4E, the rules make for some super-exploitable abilities. I'd take this back to the drawing board and impose either higher costs or "impossible" combos.

 

[Revinor]

Hmm

Alright, with 18 points I can have -

(asuming Human with bonus feat, making 2 feats available at first level)

First Strike 1
Spellbook 5
Sneak Attack 5
Wizard Training 1
Hunter's Quarry 5

Better to take Warlock's Curse instead of Spellbook. Sneak Attack will probably not work on spells, so let's try something else

# Hunter's Quarry: 5
# Sneak Attack: 5
# Warlock's Curse: 5
# Rogue Tactics: Backstabber 2
# Proficient w/all light armor: 1

Spend a feat to learn fighting with rapier and with CA and 20 Str you will deal 1d8+4d6+10 damage on basic attack. (extendable to 1d8+3d8+1d6+10+extras with more feats).

If powers are freely selectable, go for short swords with twin strike to get better chance of landing 1d8+4d6+5 damage (backstabber will still work).

In short - munchkin dream.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

Most of the worst abuses possible could probably be handled by the following:
"The 5-point benefits are exclusive; if you have one of them, you may not have any others."

 

[Revinor]

Most of the worst abuses possible could probably be handled by the following:
"The 5-point benefits are exclusive; if you have one of them, you may not have any others."

Then you cannot have Spellbook and Cantrips... but this can be fixed by reducing their costs (they are maybe worth 5 points together, certainly not per piece).

Anyway, in this case, it changes to: choose one of the basic classes from PHB and then modify lesser abilities. If you merged Spellbook and Cantrips, there will be exactly 8 5-point abilities, one for each class...