Class skills for Fighters

[warhookdm]

I just read an interesting thread at WoTC about Intimidate, and why it should/shouldn't be a fighter skill. This made me think of my major continuing pet-peeve about the fighter class: the absolute lack of class skills and skill points for them. Let's be honest, there is a lot more to being a fighter than "Me fighter, me tank, me kill you".

Chief complaints: Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge, and only 2+Int bonus (+1 if Human) skill points [I also hate the skill points for Sorcerers & Wizards, but at least their skills make sense and aren't noticeably lacking]. Spot and Hide are especially annoying to me; Fighters (from PHB description) would be about the least likely class to blindly walk into an ambush (they would be alert for one; this is their JOB!), but based on skills (unless they sacrifice a bunch of points) a 10th level Ftr will walk into an ambush EVERY time a rogue of roughly 3rd level (Hide = +6 before mods, and even a LOUSY rogue will have at least a 14 Dex) sets one up. And without Hide, the Ftr has practically zero chance to set an ambush of his own. These are the guys that are supposed to be the backbone of an army, and they can't do some pretty basic combat skills.

As a result, I am considering a series of house rules for the fighter class for my next campaign:

1. Change Ftr, (& Wiz, & Sor) to 4 points+Int bonus/Level
2. Add Spot, Hide, Heal, Knowledge(History), Knowledge(War), and possibly Move Silently (given armor problems, I am unsure about this one...) to skills list.

While I'm at it, here's a use for the Heal skill that we currently use:

Upon a successful Heal check (provided no healing magic has already been used on the wounds in question), the PC using this skill may bind wounds to heal damage as follows:
1 rank: Heal 1 point
2 ranks: Heal d2 points
4 ranks: Heal d4 points
8 ranks: Heal d6 points
12 ranks: Heal d8 points
This may not be done in combat, except by Clerics/Druids (who will tend to use cure spells anyway). The time required to employ this skill out of combat is 1 minute per binding attempt. Wounds may only be bound ONCE. Clerics/Druids who attempt this in combat will require 2 full rounds if focusing solely on the binding. If attempting to do so without drawing AoO's (Healing defensively, so to speak), add d4 rounds to the attempt, and make successful Concentration checks against 10+damage suffered each round (Cumulative) to complete the bind. Failure to make the Heal check (DC15) means the bind was unsuccessful; failure to make the Concentration check means the attempt was interrupted, and a new Heal check must be made (at whatever penalty the DM deems appropriate) to resume on your next action.
Out of combat, PC's with at least 4 ranks will generally be able to stabilize a dying PC in 1 round, and any additional healing their bind generates will occur over the remaining 9 rounds.

[In practice, nobody in my group has ever tried to do a bind in combat, but it does save some of the low-level spells for true emergencies.]

Oops, got a bit long there. Let me know what you think.

 

[thalmin]

I just read an interesting thread at WoTC about Intimidate, and why it should/shouldn't be a fighter skill. This made me think of my major continuing pet-peeve about the fighter class: the absolute lack of class skills and skill points for them. Let's be honest, there is a lot more to being a fighter than "Me fighter, me tank, me kill you".

Chief complaints: Spot, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge, and only 2+Int bonus (+1 if Human) skill points [I also hate the skill points for Sorcerers & Wizards, but at least their skills make sense and aren't noticeably lacking]. Spot and Hide are especially annoying to me; Fighters (from PHB description) would be about the least likely class to blindly walk into an ambush (they would be alert for one; this is their JOB!), but based on skills (unless they sacrifice a bunch of points) a 10th level Ftr will walk into an ambush EVERY time a rogue of roughly 3rd level (Hide = +6 before mods, and even a LOUSY rogue will have at least a 14 Dex) sets one up. And without Hide, the Ftr has practically zero chance to set an ambush of his own. These are the guys that are supposed to be the backbone of an army, and they can't do some pretty basic combat skills.

As a result, I am considering a series of house rules for the fighter class for my next campaign:

1. Change Ftr, (& Wiz, & Sor) to 4 points+Int bonus/Level
2. Add Spot, Hide, Heal, Knowledge(History), Knowledge(War), and possibly Move Silently (given armor problems, I am unsure about this one...) to skills list.

1. Others have brought up this before, actually that everyone should get another 2 skills. If done, bump everyone.

2. I can see spot, sort of.
Why hide? Grunts are taught to fight en masse.
Heal? Soldiers inflict wounds, not cure them.
Knowledge (History) and (War)? Absolutely!
Move Silently? Same as hide.

Now I am in favor of using a feat to make any 1 non-exclusive skill a class skill. (Doesn't Kalamar have this one?) This would allow more specialized fighters like snipers, medics and such.

At least that's my 2cp's.

 

[Drawmack]

Umm the fighter gets 10 bonus feats. This is really powerful allowing them all kinds of specialization that is not open to other classes. For example a fighet can take Point blank shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, shot on the run, dodge and mobility by 6th (5th if they are human) level. Granted they need a 13 dex for this but by 6th level they already have an ability point bonus so if they dump that on dex they only need to start with a 12 dex.

Okay so now by 9th level the fighter is getting the following bonuses from feats:
+4 to AC, except when denied dex bonus (mobility)
+1 to AC against selected opponent (dodge)
Increased range incrment (1.5 or 2 multiplier) (Far Shot)
+1 to damage on ranged attacks within 30 feet (Point Blank Shot)
No penalty for shooting into melee (Precise Shot)
An extra shot at their highest BaB when using full attack (suffering -2 to all attack bonuses) (Rapid Shot)
Can move before and after a ranged attack (Shot on the run)

Now tell me is this guy running into melee and tanking it or is he hanging back an killing people with his bow?

When you are discussing things like this you must think of the evolution of 3rd edition. In second edition we have weapon and non-weapon proficiencies. In 3rd edition those are gone. WP have been replaced by feats and NWP have been replaced by skills. The fighter gets feats out the bung and the rogue gets skills out the bung as a result of this.

Now lets go back to our fighter he is currently 6th level and a master of ranged combat. This guy is amazing on the open plains but only so so in dungeons and other close combat situations so he takes this into account and builds his close combat skills taking Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Great Cleave, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two Bladed Sword), Weapon Finesse (Two Bladed Sword), Weapon Focus(Two Bladed Sword), Weapon Specialization(Two Bladed Sword).

These 8 feats bring our fighter to 15th level.
We now have a 15th level fighter that can perform amazing ranged attacks and can do just about anything in close combat. By 20th level he gets 4 more feats, which he can spend on skill focus or on even more fighting stuff like improved initiative.

In any event you now want to give this guy more class skills and more skill points too. You should consider how unbalancing it would be also consider why some of that stuff isn't already part of the class.

Hide - how is someone in full plate going to hide?
Move Silently - how is someone in full plate going to move silently?
Heal - what? makes no sense, they have medics for that.
Knowledge (History) - no probably not, more interested in killing stuff then learning about where the shool system came from.
Knowledge (War) - maybe but I'd be more apt to buy knowledge (fighting) which aids in tactics and such.
Spot - probably not, because he's making so much noise wondering around in full plate that other stuff will see him first anyway.

Now let's look at the more skill points problem. Unless you do it across the board you are symbolizing him spending more time on skills which means less time on feats so knock bonus feats to 1 every 3rd level in order to maintain balance.

Basically what you are proposing should be a multiclassed character probably fighter/rogue which is what enemies and allies recommends for town guards and the like anyway.

 

[CCamfield]

I'm not too much in favour of your proposed changes, but I wanted to comment on your healing rule.

Not bad. I was thinking of using a system allowing 1d4 hps for every 4 or 5 ranks in Heal, but after trying it in one session I thought it was a bit too generous and I've scaled it back to being 1 hp/recipient's level.

There was a pretty substantial thread about using healing to restore lost hit points not long ago. Scroll back and look for "Clerics & First Aid" if interested.

 

[Datt]

In my group we did change Intimidate to be a fighter class skill. It just makes sense that a big burly fighter can Intimidate someone a little easier than a rogue. Even though that rogue could sure talk about doing losts of bad stuff, if I see a big fighter threatening me I am more likely to be afraid of the fighter than the rogue.

As for the other skills you listed, I would have to agree with the others. I just don't see a fighter hiding well or moving very silent. As for Spot, that is the scouts job. Be him a ranger or a rogue. I also don't see the fighter spending too much time learning about the history of the world. Now Knowledge [War] makes sense.

I also think that the profession skill should be a fighter skill. I mean they give them Craft but what about the things Craft doesn't cover. I was going to make a fighter who was a carpenter in his down time, but couldn't really do it because Carpentry is really Profession Architecture & Engineering.

 

[Hollywood]

Re: Re: Class skills for Fighters

I can see spot, sort of.
Why hide? Grunts are taught to fight en masse.
Move Silently? Same as hide.

Reread the fighter classs description, these are the "grunts", thats the warrior. These are more the elite warriors, i.e maybe somewhat like the US Army's Rangers, but not really the SEALS or Delta Force.

Personally, I don't agree that Hide and Move Silently should be a class skill, but definetly Heal [basic first aid is taught to soliders], Listen, Spot.

Another 2 skills points to some of the classes wouldn't hurt, but I agree if you are going to add some to any of the core classes without reworking the class, you need to add the same increase to all core classes.

Umm the fighter gets 10 bonus feats. This is really powerful allowing them all kinds of specialization that is not open to other classes.

And yet, as the guy pointed out, no matter how specialized a fighter is, he walks into a trap every single time. Now, you could spend some of those feats for Alertness and Blooded [from FRCS] which would give you +3 to Spot and +2 to Listen, which is effectively 10 skill points.

And there is always multi-classing or min/maxing. You could start the fighter as a Rogue at 1st level and max out listen/spot to 4 ranks. Thats 16 points spent that a normal fighter would take forever to build up.

Hide - how is someone in full plate going to hide?
Move Silently - how is someone in full plate going to move silently?
Heal - what? makes no sense, they have medics for that.
Knowledge (History) - no probably not, more interested in killing stuff then learning about where the shool system came from.
Knowledge (War) - maybe but I'd be more apt to buy knowledge (fighting) which aids in tactics and such.
Spot - probably not, because he's making so much noise wondering around in full plate that other stuff will see him first anyway.

Hide - Not all fighters wear full plate, but still doesn't mean its a class skill... its an untrained skill, so they CAN use it, just not well.
MS - Same as hide.
Heal - I believe its an untrained skill, so it probably doesn't need to be a class skill as long as the fighter has some skill points to get some training in it.
Knowledge [History/War] - Depends on the fighter. But right now, there isn't a good class a fighter can multi-class with to get that education. Not all fighters are melee or ranged experts, some would be generals, etc.
Spot/Listen - Doesn't matter if other things see him first, thats not the point. Point is that the fighter is trained in spotting the enemy. After all, an archer is useless if he can't see an enemy hiding in the trees.

I frankly know exactly what warhookdm is feeling... its the inability of the class system to handle the "fine-grained" character aspects. How do you play a fighter that is trained as a lookout? Multi-class with a rogue, ok, that works to some degree. How do you play a fighter that knows history of war or has strategic command sense? Multi-class with what? A rogue again? Does that make sense, other than from min-maxing?

And you can take that into other classes too.... which is one reason I came up with the Journeyman/Expert class that you helped so effectively with Drawmack.

But bottom line warhookdm, if you want to give the fighter more skill points, he needs to lose something. Or give every core class the same number of increased skill points... that way they maintain parity. Same thing with skills, you could make Listen and Spot available as class skills to all classes and it shouldn't really effect balance hardly at all.

 

[drnuncheon]

Re: Re: Re: Class skills for Fighters

Reread the fighter classs description, these are the "grunts", thats the warrior. These are more the elite warriors, i.e maybe somewhat like the US Army's Rangers, but not really the SEALS or Delta Force.

Rangers are like the US Army rangers - note the hide and move silently and such in their skills. Funny coincidence in the names, isn't it? A Ftr/Rog can also do a good job at such a position, so if you're looking for a 'special forces' concept I think you should be looking along those lines and not at a pure fighter.

A pure fighter, though, belongs on the battlefield. He may be a 'grunt' or an officer. He may be heavy shock cavalry like the mounted knight. He may be a highly trained footman like the Roman centurion. But his job is not to find ambushes and sneak up on the enemy (that's for scouts) or to bandage wounds (that's for medics) or to threaten and frighten people or anything else: his job is to get in there, take and/or hold the ground, and do the actual fighting. That's what the class is for, that's what the skills are for.

You can pick any skill in the book and come up with a plausible reason for Class X to have it as a class skill, but that doesn't mean it should be one unless it's part of the archetype. If you think it's plausible for character Y of class X to have the skill, buy it cross class - that's what the mechanism is there for. If there are so many cross-class skills you want that you can't afford them all, consider whether you are in the right class or not.

J

 

[wolff96]

Re: Re: Re: Class skills for Fighters

I really agree on the skill point increase: If you're going to change the skill points by a set amount -- +2 in this case -- you should really do it across the board. A more equitable solution would be to keep the same ratios... but I doubt most people would do that, since giving 4 to the fighter means the rogue should get 16.

Same thing with skills, you could make Listen and Spot available as class skills to all classes and it shouldn't really effect balance hardly at all.

I think it does.

One of the main advantages of Rangers, Rogues, and Barbarians (who only get Listen) is that they have the most-checked skills in the game as a class skill.

If your fighter wants to be a savvy, canny opponent who glides through the darkness and always spots a waiting ambush, then he needs to multiclass. You're giving up feats to get the survival skills you want.

Typical military ambushes are about finding tactical blindspots; very rare indeed is the ambush that actually depends on hiding physically from the enemy -- unless it's behind a hill or otherwise out of line of sight.

I would say that a US Ranger (or SEAL, or other special forces type) is actually a Prestige Class; they get access to skills that your average fighter would not. I disagree that a standard fighter should be all that alert. He's trained for battle (all those feats), not for massive alertness.

 

[Shallown]

I did what others have suggested and bumped all the classes up 2 skill points. They are now all 8th level and it seems to work out pretty well. The fighter acvtually has several craft skills, which I like.

I also made intimidate a fighter class skill just becuase I want my fighters to be intimidating.

As for having a fighter be specialized or something I allow fighters to have profession or knowledge if it makes sense for a fighter to have, but not becuase the character is just interested in it. Example would be Knowledge (tactics).

So far these changes haven't unhinged my game.

later

 

[Reiver]

I agree with you about intimidate for fighters, but if you give fighters more skill points and add hide, spot, listen, move silently to their skill list, then why would anyone ever play a ranger?