Class subtypes

[DMH]

One of the most interesting ideas from Warriors (Skirmisher) is the idea of the subtype of a class. By spending a feat (something I would drop), a character can exchange the initial built in class feats for others. As an example, warriors and fighters start with 6 (2 weapon and 4 armor).

So has anyone used or tinkered this idea?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Let's do a Fighter variant. We'll drop the armor proficiencies (3), simple weapon proficiency, and shield proficiencies (2 -- fighters, and only fighters, have proficiency in tower shields). In exchange, let's give them Cleave, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, and Spring Attack.

 

[DMH]

What bonus feats would you pick for him? Would dropping all armor be worth it?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

One of the most interesting ideas from Warriors (Skirmisher) is the idea of the subtype of a class. By spending a feat (something I would drop), a character can exchange the initial built in class feats for others. As an example, warriors and fighters start with 6 (2 weapon and 4 armor).

So has anyone used or tinkered this idea?

I won't touch it, not even with a 10-foot-pole. CRGreathouse has it right: this will make you more powerful than you should be, since you practically give nothing up but gain a lot. Just say no. Don't want to use twenty different types of weapons? Just don't. Don't want to use heavy armor or shields? Simply don't. But don't demand other feats for it. The built-in weapon and armour proficiencies aren't feats really, anyway.

 

[Victim]

Another problem is that it's easy to recover initial armor and weapon proficiencies with multiclassing.

 

[DMH]

Okay, so we don't let the player have control of it- it is used to create new classes by the DM. A player may give some requests along these lines, but to nip such blatant powergaming in the bud the DM should deny such suggestions.

Another problem is that it's easy to recover initial armor and weapon proficiencies with multiclassing.

As long as the DM agrees with that sentiment. It is quite easy to say no and make it stick.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Just out of curiousity: What would you grant them when making subclasses that way?

 

[Starglim]

I would absolutely not trade weapon or armour feats for open feat slots.

There is some scope, though, for trading starting feats for other class abilities. The 3.5 ranger loses medium and heavy armour, and has some class abilities that are restricted if he uses such armour by virtue of another class (I think this is important as a balancing factor).

 

[DMH]

Just out of curiousity: What would you grant them when making subclasses that way?

The book itself uses them to specialize soldiers- like heavy and light horsemen trading shield and shield and heavy armor, respectively, for weapon focus or skill focus (ride) and both.

As for myself, I can see arcane casters who trade in their weapon selections for a metagmagic feat, run, great fortitude, iron will, lightning reflexes or some feat that ties into the character's background. Clerics could gain improved turning while giving up heavy armor.

That does bring up an important point- I would not allow a character to give up light armor when medium and/or heavy is possessed and martial weapons have to be given up before simple.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The book itself uses them to specialize soldiers- like heavy and light horsemen trading shield and shield and heavy armor, respectively, for weapon focus or skill focus (ride) and both.

I could be persuaded to allow Skill focus (ride), but no spell focus, no way.

As for myself, I can see arcane casters who trade in their weapon selections for a metagmagic feat

Again, no way in all the hells. They give up almost nothing (they might use a crossbow very early in their career, but that passes quite quickly) for a big boost

run, great fortitude, iron will, lightning reflexes or some feat that ties into the character's background.

Again, run might be OK, the others are a big boost and worth way more than weapons, especially to a spellcaster

Clerics could gain improved turning while giving up heavy armor.

You mean extra turning? That might be OK unless they use divine feats, then they again get a big kick for something they wouldn't have used, anyway (not that clerics are in any need for goodies, anyway)

That does bring up an important point- I would not allow a character to give up light armor when medium and/or heavy is possessed and martial weapons have to be given up before simple.

Even then, this means often that they really give up nothing and get a big boost out of it. If anything, I might allow Skill Focus (and there, I might restrict the skills to be boosted), Run, Endurance, Toughness (the normal one, not Improved Toughness or a houseruled Toughness that gives +1/lv), Eschew Materials (but then again, spontaneous casters get that for free IMC), Track, Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll. Nothing else.