Class Training feats and obsolescence

[mach1.9pants]

I have been thinking about how Class Training feats work after the Rogue &.
Now I guess that at each level each class has an equal amount of at will, per encounter and per day powers.

e.g. Rogue:
"Suggested At-Will Powers: Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Torturous Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Easy Target"

e.g. Wizard:
"I’ll take magic missile and fireblast for my at-will powers. Oh! Burning hands for an encounter power, and, let’s see, sleep for my daily."

And they should all be balanced with each other. This would logically suggest to me that a class training feat would give you access to an equivalent power of another class instead of your own. The increase in flexibility is off set by using a feat to get it. So my first level rogue could use his feat to get magic missile as an at will power rather than piercing strike or riposte strike.
All well and good. However what happens as I level up, I would imagine that, similar to B09S manoovers-no I can never spell it - and similar to current non-spontaneous spellcasters, I will have:
1. A limit to the number of powers I can know in total.
2. The ability to swap lower level powers for higher as I level up.
3. (Maybe) a limit to the number of powers I can have readied/prepared/whatever at one time. True or not, this is irrelevant to my point

So what happens to that level one Wiz power I have when I am at 10th (or whatever) level? Will I be able to swap it for another, higher level Wiz power in the same way I could swap it or another for a higher level Rogue power.
Or is it going to become obsolete, and a waste of a feat?

Thoughts?

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

My thoughts on this are:

If our wizard takes rogue training he has access to a limited number of Rogue Class Traits eg: training in leather armour, no access to rogue class features eg: sneak attack, rogue tactics or rogue weapon talent, he will have full access to rogue class powers eg: deft strike or tortuous strike. Total number of Powers are based on character level so mixing and matching is possible at a sacrifice to your core class.

This would take care of the "multiclassing works" motto that WoTC has - you don't have all the abilities of either class but you are still on an equal power level.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I dunno, that seems a lot of flexibility for the cost of one feat (are feats not quite as powerful in 4E? I think I saw that). But my guess also seems to be underpowered.
So maybe free access to powers only? Maximum 1 power per 2 to be 'cross class'? I think that, maybe, the Class Training feat will exist side by side with multiclassing. Ie you can dip in with Class Training or go the whole way with multiclassing.

 

[Kirnon_Bhale]

In retrospect I agree with you. I think however a feat granting access to a classes powers but not the actual powers is not overpowered because you still have to expend power slots to gain the benefit of the feat.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

If our wizard takes rogue training he has access to a limited number of Rogue Class Traits eg: training in leather armour, no access to rogue class features eg: sneak attack, rogue tactics or rogue weapon talent, he will have full access to rogue class powers eg: deft strike or tortuous strike. Total number of Powers are based on character level so mixing and matching is possible at a sacrifice to your core class.

According to R&C there's isn't just one class training feat for each class. They are a set of feats for each class:

Each class has a corresponding set of feats that allows other characters to pick up class abilities, skill training and even powers from another class. Have that idea for the martial wizard? Take the Fighter Training feats.

 

[0bsolete]

I really haven't been able to keep up on this as much as most, due to a busy schedule. But I must admit that I'm fairly excited about all this stuff, as little as I understand it.

 

[psionotic]

I hope that they can pull this off. If the different class powers are balanced against eachother at every level, then there is no reason that we shouldn't be able to have characters with a few other powers from another class, so long as they pay the feat for the flexibility. This would also allow for nearly limitless character customization, and some great hybrid characters.

 

[helium3]

So what happens to that level one Wiz power I have when I am at 10th (or whatever) level? Will I be able to swap it for another, higher level Wiz power in the same way I could swap it or another for a higher level Rogue power.
Or is it going to become obsolete, and a waste of a feat?

Thoughts?

If this is a problem for a thief than it's also a problem for the wizard. What are you assuming that the wizard gets that the thief that "multi-classes" doesn't? The ability to swap out powers?

 

[mach1.9pants]

If this is a problem for a thief than it's also a problem for the wizard. What are you assuming that the wizard gets that the thief that "multi-classes" doesn't? The ability to swap out powers?

Nope. What I mean is that: if I can swap powers at certain levels in the same way a PC from Bo9S can i.e. replace a lower level power with a higher level one because I have only a limited number of each type (will/enc/day) of power available. Will my Rogue (base class) I be able to swap my first level Wizard (Class Training feat) power for only another Rogue power -thus my feat is lost; or will be able to swap it for an appropriate level wiz power- levelling up the swapped power gained by my feat.
Does that make sense?

 

[FireLance]

An interesting thought about the class training feats. I wonder if it will be possible to obtain class features with these feats: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent or even Sneak Attack, for example. If so, that might explain why Sneak Attack is only usable with a limited set of weapons. It might also open up the possibility for a rogue to take class training for Rogue Tactics to gain both Artful Dodger and Brutal Scoundrel benefits.