Classes by primary stat

[KarinsDad]

Even so, attack powers using a secondary stat would be anywhere from 1 to 3 points below a primary, so it's usually a poor choice.

1 point below is not a poor choice.

The poor choice is either multiclassing or hybriding in the first place. Yeah, someone can sometimes get a minor cool effect or ability and there are a few builds that actually work semi-ok, but both of these concepts just plain suck and are not well thought out.

Want to be a Fighter / Wizard? Guess what? You're in luck. We put out the Swordmage class just for you!!! Whatever.


If WotC would have designed good multiclassing rules, they would only need 12 classes and they would have 156 (or even more with multiclassing into a third class) class options, all of them viable.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Even so, attack powers using a secondary stat would be anywhere from 1 to 3 points below a primary, so it's usually a poor choice.

If you are willing to not always have a starting ability score of 18 (before racial modifiers), it is possible to afford two stats at 16. Add racial ability modifiers, and you have the same stat for both.

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The poor choice is either multiclassing or hybriding in the first place.
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Wrong. Any feat that gives you skill training and an extra can't be a bad choice. But some work better than others. I think any feat that also grants you one of the Leader healing powers isn't bad, for example. It's decent extra healing when you need it most. It probably gives you more hit points than Toughness.

Some At-Will powers, even as encounter power only, are often situationally very useful, and situational typically means "not much more than once per encounter".

If WotC would have designed good multiclassing rules, they would only need 12 classes and they would have 156 (or even more with multiclassing into a third class) class options, all of them viable.

I do not think that is possible. Maybe if they removed stuff like ability modifiers for attacks? Of course, that would fix already all major drawbacks with the existing system.

 

[KarinsDad]

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The poor choice is either multiclassing or hybriding in the first place.
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Wrong. Any feat that gives you skill training and an extra can't be a bad choice.

Wrong.

You only say that since you bought into the idea that one skill = one feat is balanced and desirable. The fact is, few players actually take Skill Training as a feat (yes, I know, some do, we have one player in our group who has), but in order to buy into the fact that a skill plus a bennie for a feat is cool, one has to first buy into the assumption that a skill for a feat is ok.

I don't buy into that. As a general rule, roles take over most skills in a group, so there is no need to buy too many skills. We once had a group of 5 who covered every single skill as trained.


Eyebite once per encounter (one of the best ones). Cool.

But a single power once per encounter does not a Fighter/Warlock make. It makes a Fighter with a single power. whoop de fricking doo

That's not really multiclassing. Not even close.

It's giving a skill and a power to a Fighter. It has really nothing to do with Warlock abilities. Ditto for hybrids.

 

[Stuntman]

1 point below is not a poor choice.

The poor choice is either multiclassing or hybriding in the first place. Yeah, someone can sometimes get a minor cool effect or ability and there are a few builds that actually work semi-ok, but both of these concepts just plain suck and are not well thought out.

It just depends on what you want out of your character. A character who has the flexibility to use class features and powers from another class do get some benefits. The problem with multiclassing is that there will always be some combinations which are way better than others. The ability to mix two classes together needs to be kept in check or single class characters will be extinct like in 3.5.

Want to be a Fighter / Wizard? Guess what? You're in luck. We put out the Swordmage class just for you!!! Whatever.

When I first heard about this class, my first reaction was that multiclassing sucked so much that they had to make a totally new class that is a mix of two existing classes. When the rules actually came out, I was happy that the fighter/wizard is very different than the swordmage.

If WotC would have designed good multiclassing rules, they would only need 12 classes and they would have 156 (or even more with multiclassing into a third class) class options, all of them viable.

I think it is very difficult to ensure all multiclass and hybrid combinations are viable. You can ensure each individual class is balanced with respect to every other class. One you start mixing two (or more) classes together, it becomes it becomes very difficult to ensure that every possible build is not too powerful or too weak. There will be some variance in power level. There have been multiclassing in every edition since 1E and in every edition there is balance issues between single and multiclassed characters. At least many of the multiclass or hybrid builds in 4E are viable.

 

[Stuntman]

Eyebite once per encounter (one of the best ones). Cool.

But a single power once per encounter does not a Fighter/Warlock make. It makes a Fighter with a single power. whoop de fricking doo

That's not really multiclassing. Not even close.

It's giving a skill and a power to a Fighter. It has really nothing to do with Warlock abilities. Ditto for hybrids.

The idea of 4E multiclassing is that you gradually gain abilities of your second class over time. As you take more multiclass feats you become more of the class you multiclass into. What you give up are feats.

Hybrids do give you abilities and powers of two classes, but you need to give up some class abilities and powers of each class. Hybrids allow you to delve into two different classes more deeply right away, but you do not gain all class features of both classes right away and have to spend a feat to gain more class features.

Both of these systems allow you to gain features of two classes at a cost. One is in feats, the other is in class features. If you do not consider these to be "multiclassing", what do you expect to be able to gain when you multiclass and what will you be willing to give up in order to gain these abilities?

 

[KarinsDad]

Both of these systems allow you to gain features of two classes at a cost. One is in feats, the other is in class features. If you do not consider these to be "multiclassing", what do you expect to be able to gain when you multiclass and what will you be willing to give up in order to gain these abilities?

No, the first one typically allows one to gain powers and rarely (depending on class) a portion of a class feature. And it allows Paragon and Epic entry (sometimes).

The second one allows one to gain powers from both classes and possibly one or two class features total from the two classes. And it allows Paragon and Epic entry (sometimes).

I have no problem with paying for class features with feats or via some other method. But neither of these systems really give that (beyond once for hybrid).

They are so watered down that are not useable for their purpose: multiclassing. There is no second classing there. Multipowering, sure. They give that to some extent. Multiprerequisites, yeah sometimes.

Multiclassing, nope. The term is totally misrepresentative of what actually occurs.

 

[Garthanos]

Multipowering, sure. They give that to some extent. Multiprerequisites, yeah sometimes.

Multiclassing, nope. The term is totally misrepresentative of what actually occurs.

Not sure I like your definition of multiclassing or find it desirable you might have to define it better...
If its just like 3.x from what I heard go up a level and bing I now know as much as somebody who had a whole apprenticeship and journeyman-hood and developed it all in one swoop that makes utterly no sense to me never did.

 

[Klaus]

1 point below is not a poor choice.

The poor choice is either multiclassing or hybriding in the first place. Yeah, someone can sometimes get a minor cool effect or ability and there are a few builds that actually work semi-ok, but both of these concepts just plain suck and are not well thought out.

Want to be a Fighter / Wizard? Guess what? You're in luck. We put out the Swordmage class just for you!!! Whatever.


If WotC would have designed good multiclassing rules, they would only need 12 classes and they would have 156 (or even more with multiclassing into a third class) class options, all of them viable.

It's pretty safe for Str-bsed classes to multiclass into other Str-based classes. Barbarian gives +2 damage for an entire encounter, Warlord gives Inspiring Word, etc. And of course, the Bard can (must?) take COmbat Virtuoso and use Charisma for everything.

Now that I think about it, why can't there be something like that for other classes, like a rogue feat that allows him to use Dex instead of Str for multiclass attack powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not sure I like your definition of multiclassing or find it desirable you might have to define it better...
If its just like 3.x from what I heard go up a level and bing I now know as much as somebody who had a whole apprenticeship and journeyman-hood and developed it all in one swoop that makes utterly no sense to me never did.

I play the game to have fun.

I don't play it to emulate reality.

But, I also have totally ok with a gradual multiclassing aquisition idea of either:

1) Normal 4E multiclassing where PCs give up feats in order to obtain class features (note: some class features are stronger than a feat, so it might be a 2 to 1 swap in some cases or even some might be disallowed) and do not give up feats to gain powers in other classes, they just gradually swap in.

2) Hybrid 4E multiclassing where PCs can repeatedly use Hybrid Talent to acquire class features and they just gradually swap in.

The concept of giving up a feat in order to swap out one power and swap in another is totally silly. Gaining an additional power with a feat? Fine. Gaining a class feature with 1 or 2 feats (if 1 feat is not enough for some class features)? Fine. Or even limiting which hybrid class features can be acquired is fine.

The way it is designed today though, it's Class Dabbling in the case of multiclassing and it's Power Dabbling (and for many hybrids, being semi-crippled in the process) in the case of Hybrid.

Sorry, but I consider that totally lame.


Note: Hybrid is semi-ok as is if the DM allows Hybrid Talent to be taken multiple times. It still has the silly "must take a power from the other class" limitation, but meh.

 

[Stuntman]

They are so watered down that are not useable for their purpose: multiclassing. There is no second classing there. Multipowering, sure. They give that to some extent. Multiprerequisites, yeah sometimes.

Multiclassing, nope. The term is totally misrepresentative of what actually occurs.

The term "multiclassing" and it's variants (hybrid, dual class) used over the many editions of D&D have changed. If you are attempting to apply the term "multiclassing" in one edition to mean the same thing in another edition, you will find that the term means different things across editions.

I would like to know what your definition of multiclassing is and what should it cost? For a fighter to be considered multiclassed into a cleric, what cleric features should the character get and what should be the cost to get these features?

The hybrid playtest rules actually talked about the capabilities of hybrid characters. They clearly state that a hybrid character can partially or temporarily fill the role of a single classed character. At least this lays out the expectation of what a hybrid character can do.

The wording in the PH1 in the multiclass section just says that multiclassing allow you to dabble or dip into another class. There is no addition wording that gives a sense of how well can you fulfill the role of the class you multiclass into. I think this may lead to many players expecting multiclassing in 4E to do more or something completely different than what it currently does. In any case, the 4E definition of multiclassing means dabbling or dipping into another class. It would seem it ammounts to only a very small set of abilities. Whether or not this should be called, "multiclassing" is probably the issue some people have.