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Classes in the APG

DumbPaladin

First Post
I apologize if this is a thread that's already been covered, but are there any current PF players out there who would like to weigh in on some of the new classes in the APG that they find especially interesting or noteworthy? Either because you like the flavor, they're especially well-balanced, or they're just fun to play?
 

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Yeah, there was a thread a while back when the APG stuff was first being discussed. You can find it here: APG Class Opinions?

To be fair, I had to go to page 5 to find it, heh.

I have a fairly large post in that thread, detailing my thoughts on each of the new classes and the archetypes in general.
 

Hmm ... thoughts...

I like the Alchemist; in a "low-fantasy" game I could see the Alchemist being the only arcane class and still working as written.

I would like the Cavalier better if he wasn't tied to a horse. Of course, that would mean the name Cavalier had to go, but I'd like that too. The game still badly needs a "martial leader" (to use the current parlance) who doesn't have a lot of ancillary baggage ... and the Cavalier comes close but no cigar. The 3.x Marshal and the Tome of Secrets Warlord still hold the spot.

The Summoner ... why an eidolon? For some reason, that just makes me not want to the play the class, sticking with a summoning-based conjurer instead.

The Witch = "hag class." That's kinda cool, if you're looking for it.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

Although I haven't yet used it in play, I very much like the idea of the summoner. The idea of the eidolon is great, to me, as it reminds me of many stories/cartoons with a "master and pet" sort of scenario (such as pokemon, bakugan and like - I've got a ten-year old, so I get stuck watching some of that stuff)
 

So far I like them. We did a little play testing with them at the time. In order.

Witch - like the class, like the flavor
Oracle - see above
Cavalier - see above
Alchemist - wasn't what I wanted in a alchemist but I like the class anyways.
Inquisitor - love the fluff of the class and like the class.
Summoner - love the concept. This is the only one I have some issues with. Mostly cause I can see possible problems. It is like watching a whole second character to make sure the math is right etc. You really need to know the rules for it or it can seem over powered.
 

Haven't had any experience with Alchemist, and barely read up on it. Ditto for Cavalier, but that's because it just seems boring.

Witch I haven't read up on, but did play in a game with one for levels 5-8, and I have to say....he really, really sucked. Kept spending standard actions to give people -2 to hit or AC (IF they failed a save!) for one round. Oh, he had the option of blowing actions in later rounds to maintain the pitiful effects. Meanwhile, the rest of us were actually killing people. In like 1-3 hits, making the cruddy debuffs seem even more pointless. Maybe it's just because our DM loved huge groups of enemies and almost never a single strong monster, but witch seemed really bad.

Inquisitor really intrigued me at first, but upon extensive reading, I came to realize that it can't actually function. I'm going to talk about an archer inquisitor, which the game seems to heavily endorse (long bow proficiency but otherwise simple weapons? and what's with lack of short bow?). If you do melee, you could've just been a cleric or druid and had level 9 casting with basically no loss in combat ability. So...archery
The class mostly fails due to lack of feats. Archery needs 3 feats (well, Precise and Rapid Shot, Point Blank's just kinda forced on you) to justify focusing on it. Until you have all 3, you're not much better off with a bow than just some guy focused on melee who picks one up for kicks. A Inquisitor can't have all 3 until level 5, 3 if human. Furthermore, in Pathfinder there's a really broken feat called Step Up, that any melee character that can meet it's rigorous +1 BAB mandate is well off to take. Spellcasters have defensive casting, archers have no defense at all. Therefore, without the feat patch known as Point Blank Master from APG, using archery as your primary attack method is a suicide pact. The main archer classes (Fighter, Ranger, Zen Archer Monk) all got a pathway to freedom, but...not the Inquisitor. Even if he could take it, a non-human wouldn't have room to do so until level 7, compared to Fighter (5), Ranger (6), and Zen Archer (3). And that's if you not only give them access to the feat, but also let them ignore the feat pre-reqs. If they need the feat pre-reqs, that's another 4 levels before you can be competent after the first round when the enemy trots the 30-60 ft typical encounter starting distance to melee you. The feat issue is actually beyond frustrating, venturing into insulting, because Inquisitors DO have class bonus feats. They just happen ot be worthless. Yup, you get them at a rate second only to the fighter, but they can only be teamwork feats. Guess how many teamwork feats benefit archery. Did you guess zero? You win! Furthermore, the spell list, which looks pretty bad overall, lacks much of anything that boosts archery. And that's counting generic small benefits, like the Bless spell. If it were sorc/wiz 2/3 progression casting, you could pick up much more useful spells to synergize with the bow, and qualify for arcane archer. Oh well.
I really like archery and I was very interested in Inquisitor at first, so sorry for the wordy review, but it was just a huge letdown.

Oracle on the other hand looks very cool. I haven't played one or seen one in play yet, but I think it's the only APG class I really want to try. I didn't like the curse rules at first, as even after 10-15 levels when the benefits are supposed to outweigh the negatives, most of the time I'd still at that point rather be without the curse at all because the initial bad stuff is still so annoying. But if you stick to the least irritating ones, you can safely ignore the curse mostly. And Haunted is very flavorful, even if it could present a pain in the ass at times, I wouldn't mind playing that.

Summoner...my friend's playing one in one of my current games, it seems to do alright. He basically just plays the Eidolon like its his PC and has the summoner just fill the battlefield with pokemon-themed allies, seems fairly balanced. I'm just not that interested in summoning.
 

I played with the cavalier and used him as an NPC baddie. He was really cool to run and had the party's ranger desperately trying to run away from him.
 

In the game where I'm playtesting a Pathfinder-ized Incarnate, we have an Oracle of Battle with the Haunted Curse. He plays up the Curse as being the spirits of people who were killed in battle, who are trying to get vicarious revenge through him.

He never acts as a party healer that I've seen; he mostly goes for the battle-monster tactic of stacking buffs and going all CoDZilla on the enemy (well, as close to CoDZilla as one can get in PF anyway- the designers did a damn good job of killing that particular monster ;)). And the tactic works- he's an absolute monster in combat, frequently dealing 30 or more points of damage from one hit. I've seen his confirmed crits reach totals above 80. I don't know exactly which buffs he uses to pull this off, just that he seems to always have them on by the time a combat starts (unless the enemy hits us with Dispels, like the last BBEG did).

He's been angling his character towards the Rage Prophet PrC, but hasn't taken his first level in it yet as far as I'm aware; he is eligible but wanted more Oracle abilities the last time we levelled up I think. He'll most likely go Rage Prophet next level.

We briefly had a guy join with an Inquisitor/Zen Archer Monk multiclass, but he didn't like how the character worked out in actual play so dropped the character (he got written out of the plot) and currently just comes to the sessions to watch. He may or may not be rejoining with another character soon. Our GM really emphasizes melee in his encounters, so it could be that the class combination sucks, or it could be that the GM's play style just makes a focused archer effectively a non-option. I can't honestly call it a fair test, in other words.
 

We briefly had a guy join with an Inquisitor/Zen Archer Monk multiclass, but he didn't like how the character worked out in actual play so dropped the character (he got written out of the plot) and currently just comes to the sessions to watch. He may or may not be rejoining with another character soon. Our GM really emphasizes melee in his encounters, so it could be that the class combination sucks, or it could be that the GM's play style just makes a focused archer effectively a non-option. I can't honestly call it a fair test, in other words.

The problem is the Zen Archer, like all monks, is really painful to multiclass with. A Zen Archer can't really benefit from Rapid or Manyshot, he's relying solely on his class-based flurry for his arrow barrage, and anything not monk kills that progression pretty hard. And the combo of two medium BAB classes rather hurts the to hit when not full attacking, and in any case makes feat qualification harder. Not to say a Zen Archer 3 dip is godawful...it could provide decent wisdom synergy and some feat relief, you'll just never have the offensive ability of a straight class Zen Archer or other archery classes.

Just my guess on why it didn't work out. Not sure what you mean by "emphasizes melee," I've never been in a campaign where melee hadn't been joined within the first 3 rounds of 95% of the encounters (and usually on the first round), lest the melee classes which make up at least 1/3 of the game's build options be left feeling useless. Maybe my experiences are atypical as well.
 

A note to add about the Cavalier: in my experience (Order of the Dragon) is far for being boring.

is very good for dealing a fair a mount of damage X times/day (challenges), and even if challenge is deadly mounted, can be very good with ranged weapons too).

He took leadership to take a Dragonne with the mini-bestiary, and since his party is melee heavy, teamwork feats for maneuvers and hit, as well as repositioning abilities like the level 8 one are lethal.

Since is full BAB, full plate and has combat fetas, holds his own in melee. He took combat expertise (which synergize in certain ways with challenge) and trip maneuvers, as well as power attack and furious focus to deal more damage both mounted and on foot.

Finally, has 4 skill/level. Int 14 and human... 7 skill/level are far from being boring out of combat.

The class is well made and well rounded. For the mounted thing, I definitively can see a future archetype without mount and with auras like the ones of the Marshal in MH. I pointed out it and suggested it in a thread about a future splatbook at Paizo, too.

But should be noted that Cavalier is far more fun and powerful than the medium BAB marshal.
 

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