D&D (2024) Classes: What changes do you predict?

[Stalker0]

Cleric is actually the number 1 class on my list to fix, as I found the class very disappointing in play. It’s just boring as heck, no real flavor, and incredibly dependent on 3 spells: bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians.

Every cleric I have ever seen played is basically just some version of these 3 spells, boring boring boring.

 

[James Gasik]

Cleric is actually the number 1 class on my list to fix, as I found the class very disappointing in play. It’s just boring as heck, no real flavor, and incredibly dependent on 3 spells: bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians.

Every cleric I have ever seen played is basically just some version of these 3 spells, boring boring boring.

The reason is that the Cleric is expected to keep spell slots open to deal with hit point damage and removing status ailments over the course of the day. Unfortunately, they weren't given anything particularly interesting to do outside of this, and I've noticed that players want to use their abilities, not save them in case they might need them later.

So they gravitate towards their few proactive spells. There is an exception, however, that I've seen, though. Once Clerics start getting spells that let them deal with status ailments proactively, those get used as well, such as Heroes' Feast, which can be a real game changer.

Another issue Clerics run into is concentration- lacking Con save proficiency, and being built to be a melee caster, the Cleric can't just throw out concentration spells willy nilly if they're just going to fall off once an enemy hits them.

One round of Spirit Guardians can make a huge impact on an encounter, and the spell also somewhat incentivizes enemies to get away from the Cleric, and unlike, say, Hold Person, the spell has a guaranteed effect.

 

[Aldarc]

They can do it, they just have to be ballsy enough to narrow down the scope of the arcane spell list to around "2014 sorcerer" levels, and then give the wizard a limited feature (like Bard secrets) to expand beyond it. That mostly preserves backwards compatibility (individual wizard characters might need adjustment, but the subclasses and feats still work) but puts more strict limits on the wizard's main source of power.

I'm glad that we are of a a similar opinion here.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Cleric is a lot like Wizard with even worse issues in some ways.

It's main thing is knowing like, a huge number of different spells and being able to cast them quite a lot. For reasons of tradition and in order to excuse it having class features, most of those spells not cool stuff for the Cleric to do, but things to help other people.

It has some class features, at least, but there's not a huge amount to work with.

And as @James Gasik points out, they're expect to hold back on a significant proportion of spell slots to help the rest of the party, healing, curing, etc. etc.

In 4E, when they were put into the AEDU structure, and their main heals were a thing all "Leader" role characters could do, they became a vastly more dramatic and dynamic class, with a ton of AEDU spells that just don't have close equivalents in 3E or 5E. Even some with the same names worked in much more dramatic ways. There was also far less expectation of holding spells back thanks to them being a Ritual Magic class and/or spells not being Daily.

I feel like we could stand, if making dramatic changes, to make the baseline Cleric a worse caster, maybe 2/3rds caster or some other structure that isn't Full Caster, and give it a lot more in the way of abilities. But I don't think we'll see anything like that. In fact I suspect we'll see no major changes to Cleric, because people who are okay with it, play it, and people who aren't, play Bard or Druid or the like.

 

[Stalker0]

One thing that would be REALLY interesting for the wizard is if they finally get off the spellbook train. The wizard is literally the only class in the game that turns gold into class features, and that is a weird way to balance a class in a modern edition.

 

[Stalker0]

Cleric is a lot like Wizard with even worse issues in some ways.

It's main thing is knowing like, a huge number of different spells and being able to cast them quite a lot. For reasons of tradition and in order to excuse it having class features, most of those spells not cool stuff for the Cleric to do, but things to help other people.

It has some class features, at least, but there's not a huge amount to work with.

And as @James Gasik points out, they're expect to hold back on a significant proportion of spell slots to help the rest of the party, healing, curing, etc. etc.

In 4E, when they were put into the AEDU structure, and their main heals were a thing all "Leader" role characters could do, they became a vastly more dramatic and dynamic class, with a ton of AEDU spells that just don't have close equivalents in 3E or 5E. Even some with the same names worked in much more dramatic ways. There was also far less expectation of holding spells back thanks to them being a Ritual Magic class and/or spells not being Daily.

I feel like we could stand, if making dramatic changes, to make the baseline Cleric a worse caster, maybe 2/3rds caster or some other structure that isn't Full Caster, and give it a lot more in the way of abilities. But I don't think we'll see anything like that. In fact I suspect we'll see no major changes to Cleric, because people who are okay with it, play it, and people who aren't, play Bard or Druid or the like.

I think if nothing else, clerics should get X uses of cure wounds per day beyond their spell slots. Similar to paladin lay on hands, give them healing that doesn't conflict with the more fun aspects of spell casting. Maybe this free ability gets upgraded to eventually do lesser restorations or something.

If spirit guardians is going to remain in the game, than lets just make it a class feature and be done with it. Again free up the spell slots for some actual variety.

 

[Undrave]

Cleric is actually the number 1 class on my list to fix, as I found the class very disappointing in play. It’s just boring as heck, no real flavor, and incredibly dependent on 3 spells: bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians.

Every cleric I have ever seen played is basically just some version of these 3 spells, boring boring boring.

Augh I know! I tried to play a Cleric multiple time and it usually ends up being super boring! It’s even worse out of the PHB where the only attack Cantrip you get is Sacred Flame. I think the only time I’ve had a Cleric be less limited is by being a human and picking up Magic Initiate: Druid as bonus feat. Getting some extra attack option (Produce Flame I really good as both a source of Light and an attack, Thorn Whip is a solid attack, and Druidcraft has some fun RP application, like predicting the weather) and then a Goodberry or a bonus Healing Word out of that lets you flex your spell list a little more. Sadly didn't get to play those more than 1 session so I don't know if I'd grow bored of them or not.

I loved playing Clerics in 4e, and Leader classes in general, but 5e support classes are way too limp to excite me.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think if nothing else, clerics should get X uses of cure wounds per day beyond their spell slots. Similar to paladin lay on hands, give them healing that doesn't conflict with the more fun aspects of spell casting. Maybe this free ability gets upgraded to eventually do lesser restorations or something.

If spirit guardians is going to remain in the game, than lets just make it a class feature and be done with it. Again free up the spell slots for some actual variety.

Absolutely. Honestly they should just straight-up steal the mechanic and give Cleric a "healing pool" like Lay on Hands with X amount costs for things like Lesser Restoration.

Druids could automatically be able to produce X amount of Goodberries (instead of having a weird OP spell) which did similar (again, perhaps you eat X Goodberries to cure Y).

Bards could have a different mechanic, perhaps relating to Inspiration but much boosted, and perhaps strengthening their Short Rest healing (if Short Rests still exist).

 

[Undrave]

In 4E, when they were put into the AEDU structure, and their main heals were a thing all "Leader" role characters could do, they became a vastly more dramatic and dynamic class, with a ton of AEDU spells that just don't have close equivalents in 3E or 5E. Even some with the same names worked in much more dramatic ways. There was also far less expectation of holding spells back thanks to them being a Ritual Magic class and/or spells not being Daily.

My favorite was Healing Strike! A level 1 Encounter Power. It was a melee weapon attack (standard 2W+STR damage) that when it landed would allow you or an ally within 25 feet to spend a healing surge AND it marked the target for a turn! Finding the perfect timing to pull that trigger, hoping to hit, was an interesting aspect, and it fed into my character’s story of being an old drill sergeant for a Paladin order that had been decimated in an attack. I even added the Paladin MC feat that gives you Divine Challenge once per encounter, so with 2 marking options I could off-tank pretty well!

Man… I miss that character. It wasn’t even a well-supported build (Being STR-CHA when the CHA aspect was completely dropped beyond PHB1).

One thing that would be REALLY interesting for the wizard is if they finally get off the spellbook train. The wizard is literally the only class in the game that turns gold into class features, and that is a weird way to balance a class in a modern edition.

The spellbook is pretty much all they have at this point too. The Wizard’s only narrative is ‘huge nerd’ and ‘has a spellbook’. Cutting out the Spellbook mechanic would force them to actually give the Wizard a real identity.

Though, using books as implement would totally fit the Wizard.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My favorite was Healing Strike! A level 1 Encounter Power. It was a melee weapon attack (standard 2W+STR damage) that when it landed would allow you or an ally within 25 feet to spend a healing surge AND it marked the target for a turn! Finding the perfect timing to pull that trigger, hoping to hit, was an interesting aspect, and it fed into my character’s story of being an old drill sergeant for a Paladin order that had been decimated in an attack. I even added the Paladin MC feat that gives you Divine Challenge once per encounter, so with 2 marking options I could off-tank pretty well!

Goddamnit dude. Now I want to go back to 4E!

I know it'll disappoint me as we get into level 11+ and the whole world becomes Interrupts, Reactions and Immediate Actions, but wow, like level 1 to like level 9 or so in 4E was just absolutely stellar.

I wonder if anyone has done an RPG that's 4E-derivative but lighter, and not Lancer/Icons (which are super-cool but very tightly focused aesthetically - I would kill a man to play Icons, but I'm not sure that means I can force my players to play it lol).