Level Up (A5E) Classes: Winner and Losers

[Stalker0]

I really feel like the Herald is a vast improvement over the old Paladin class. Maneuvers, cantrips, the various exploration and social tier abilities, and a more sensible way of handling Divine Smite all add up to a really awesome class, IMHO.

The reason the Herald remains in my middle list (aka perfectly good, not a winner or loser) is I feel the class is more a rearrangement of the paladin than a true improvement.

Smite abilities are mostly reflavored smite spells, many of the paladin abilities are there just now chosen from lists, and you have to give up several paladin abilities that you used to get as part of the core class. I think its a very solid class, a worthy paladin....I just don't think it brings as much new to the table as some of the winners I chose.

 

[Satirical Bard]

Does the new divine smite still double on a crit? I always thought that was a stupid rule in o5e, and a key part of what made paladins OP martials.

 

[kerleth]

The origin of the comment chain—the rogue class, specifically—is rather distant now, but the complaint was more or less that rogues are no better than any other class now at gaining new skills. I should have been clearer, given that distance.

Thanks for clarifying! I'm still a little confused though. I don't remember the rogue getting bonus skills in O5E at later levels either. In fact I just double checked it, and O5E rogue gets 4 skills and thieves tools. A5E gets 4 skills, thieves tools, disguise kit, and poisoner's kit and a skill trick to gain an additional skill (among all the other options). I THINK that's more starting proficiencies than any other class and more than the original rogue, with more options to gain bonus proficiencies than the original as well.

Furthermore, I read back up the thread. The origin of the comment chain was actually a general discussion of multiple classes not specifically the rogue, so without you saying anything about the rogue in your previous comment I assumed it was referring to the system in general. That's no big deal and already cleared up. The only other criticism of the rogue I saw had no mention of learning more skills, rather they were commenting on the difference between the Expertise ability (O5E) and Expertise Dice (A5E).

You had said,

Not being able to gain a new skill after character creation does seem like a major oversight.

but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. So I'm still a little confused and curious what your criticism actually is, I guess.

 

[Legendweaver]

Further, the generalization of reckless attack really took away a key element of what made the Barbarian special.

Yeah, very true. I wonder if the designers considered a tiered approach: "Press the Attack" could grant advantage to Berserkers, but expertise to everyone else, and against Berserkers, maybe "Fall Back" could reduce a berserker's advantage to expertise instead of cancelling it outright.

This would also increase the incentive to flank. As it is, two attackers are better off both trying to "Press the Attack" rather than flank an enemy in situations where they have to choose... and remove a cheesy way for rogues to sneak attack without stealth or collaboration and instead just by "pressing the attack"

 

[niklinna]

You had said,

Not being able to gain a new skill after character creation does seem like a major oversight.

but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. So I'm still a little confused and curious what your criticism actually is, I guess.
[/QUOTE]

I've had a very sleep-deprived week (including right now). I could have sworn somebody complained upthread that rogues couldn't gain new skill proficiencies via class features, but I may well have been hallucinating or just misinterpreted something.

 

[lichmaster]

Furthermore, you can now also gain skills from downtime, which you couldn't do in O5E.

Of course you could in o5e, there's specifically the "Training" downtime activity. It took 250 days and 1 gp/day

 

[kerleth]

You had said,


but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. So I'm still a little confused and curious what your criticism actually is, I guess.

I've had a very sleep-deprived week (including right now). I could have sworn somebody complained upthread that rogues couldn't gain new skill proficiencies via class features, but I may well have been hallucinating or just misinterpreted something.
[/QUOTE]

Well that clears up my confusion. I hope you're able to get plenty of sleep soon.

Of course you could in o5e, there's specifically the "Training" downtime activity. It took 250 days and 1 gp/day

Nope. Tools and Languages, not Skills. Here's the paragraph.
"The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool."

 

[lichmaster]

Nope. Tools and Languages, not Skills. Here's the paragraph.
"The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool."

You're right, but at the same time it seemed such a lame and random restriction that I could really never care about it.

 

[Xaielao]

Does the new divine smite still double on a crit? I always thought that was a stupid rule in o5e, and a key part of what made paladins OP martials.

No, because it's a feature, not a damage rider.

 

[LionheadGaming]

I'm surprised the Marshal did not make your losers list. All of it's measurable strength is tied up in the Social and Exploration pillars in ways that other characters should they really wish to involve themselves with Strongholds, Followers, and Being Famous can also achieve. You are dependent on having a Rogue for something to give an attack to that feels worthwhile and the Sanguine Knot manuvers just suck. So much grappling and knocking prone, or a couple of 1/round AC buffs.

The subclasses are absolutely a disappointment as well. Tactician doesn't even really feel like anything people just grab the die from you as a bonus action or they don't. Why couldn't it be something you actively gave out? Why do your attacks that you give away have no increase in accuracy or damage and annoyingly eat into the action economy by taking reactions for no actual benefit besides being a second Sneak Attack.

One of the greatest disappointments of the system to me. I cannot escape the feeling that if I made a Fighter and flavored them as a Warlord leader type grabbed the few decent Knot manuvers and just made sure to buy Followers and a Stronghold I'd be fine. Take Folk Hero to start out with a bit of fame and work to achieve more. Not like the Marshal exploration knacks are anything to really care about either. It just feels like a disappointing afterthought.