D&D 5E Classic High Level Threats?

[dave2008]

Right, 13 is more then, say, 5.

And you could have a whole bunch of giants, all together. Even in the same big huge room.

I vaguely remember some adventures that did that.

However, the OP is not about high level adventures, but high level monsters, specifically monsters of CR 15+

 

[dave2008]

The Elder Brain is CR 14. That's high level but not quite endgame. Mind Flayers are really a mid-game menace, not an endgame. The last 5 levels of play.


And you can't just fight dragons and demons for five levels. That's cool, but gets old. And it's only good for a single campaign.
Between Volo's Guide and the MM there are 24 monsters between CR 15 and 20, and another 14 CR 21+ (And this includes an the metallic dragons and a few other good creatures).
With the adventures, there are another 14. Most of those above CR 20.

That's not many.
(In comparison, there are more than 70 monsters of CR 1/4 and below... in the Monster Manual alone.)

The problem I see is that high level monsters feel like they should be more scarce. I love high level monsters, but it just doesn't make sense to me that there would be that many, for a great number of reasons. I agree it would not be fun to fight dragons for 5 levels, but it could be fun to fight a dragon and its minions for 5 levels.

That is generally the approach I take.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The Elder Brain is CR 14. That's high level but not quite endgame. Mind Flayers are really a mid-game menace, not an endgame. The last 5 levels of play.

And you can't just fight dragons and demons for five levels. That's cool, but gets old. And it's only good for a single campaign.
Between Volo's Guide and the MM there are 24 monsters between CR 15 and 20, and another 14 CR 21+ (And this includes an the metallic dragons and a few other good creatures).
With the adventures, there are another 14. Most of those above CR 20.

That's not many.
(In comparison, there are more than 70 monsters of CR 1/4 and below... in the Monster Manual alone.)

"High level campaign" and "high-CR monsters" are not synonymous. As noted in prior discussion, you build NPCs on a stronger chassis (like a Mind Flayer Fighter 12 with Action Surge and Extra Attack 2, which will probably wind up being around CR 20), and you can also use believably large numbers of lower-level troops. In the Unhuman Wars storyline mentioned previously, you could easily and reasonably have a planetary-class orcish shaman (say, cleric 18) and his protege (cleric 9) and a legendary hobgoblin warrior (Champion 18) and a small battalion (say, three or four hundred) of CR 2-3 orcish elite troops (about on par with githyanki) plus a dozen or so witchlight marauders secondaries (probably CR 8ish, about on par with a Blue Slaad but with faster reproduction), all making a drop on a planetary location. There's no way the locals are going to stop them so it's up to the PCs. Good luck guys and don't get eaten! There you go--a day in the life of 20th level PCs stuck in the middle of the Second Unhuman War.

And BTW, if you actually engage in these kinds of battles, it doesn't take that long to finish five levels. The scenario above is probably worth about 100,000 XP per PC, which in 5E is two or three levels. High-level advancement happens really, really fast in 5E, if you survive.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Between Volo's Guide and the MM there are 24 monsters between CR 15 and 20,

If you go by the encounter guidelines and exp tables, it'd take about 26 Hard encounters (or about 8 standard-issue adventuring days) to go from 15th to 20th. 26 encounters? 24 monsters?

Probably a coincidence.

and another 14 CR 21+ (And this includes an the metallic dragons and a few other good creatures).
With the adventures, there are another 14. Most of those above CR 20.

That's not many.

Sounds like 52.

(In comparison, there are more than 70 monsters of CR 1/4 and below... in the Monster Manual alone.)

So is it the raw numbers or the proportions that are off? 7:5 doesn't sound that bad. How many monsters are there 'for' each Tier, I wonder....?

And BTW, if you actually engage in these kinds of battles, it doesn't take that long to finish five levels. The scenario above is probably worth about 100,000 XP per PC, which in 5E is two or three levels. High-level advancement happens really, really fast in 5E, if you survive.

Apprentice Tier and Epic Tier both seem designed to go really fast. My experiences running the former make me suspect that was a good idea.

Which was meant to be the point of this thread: get people talking about favourite high level threats, .... Finding those hidden gems and personal favourites.

Hmm...

The Sorrowsworn became iconic pretty fast for one of my groups, and just made a big impression on another last night...

Spell Weavers? They were kinda horrible, really, but certainly appropriate to high-level. ...

...thinking back to the last levels of my old AD&D campaign, it was almost always custom monsters (they were dealing with Lovecraftian horrors that were trapped in the world when it was created and were trying to get out, y'know, by destroying it)...

...oh, the Arcanadeamon (I suppose it became the Arcanaloth at some point?), spell ability of an arch-mage qualified it.

 

[bleezy]

I think Hemlock had the right idea. When you go up in level you're not supposed to keep fighting groups of 5-10 monsters giving you the same amount of "challenge" as you experienced early in your career. Pen & paper RPGs are very different from CRPGs in this respect. You can't have a world where your PCs will expect to encounter packs of red dragons on a regular basis. If such monster packs existed, lower level adventures would not be able to survive wilderness exploration.


Your PCs will need to either travel to an alien location (deep in the Underdark, Abyss, Acheron, etc) or else experience conflict on a different scale then they are used to (invading or defending cities, kingdoms, leading armies into battle, etc). The campaign would become ridiculous otherwise.


The statblock CR distribution seems pretty good to me.


I don't think DMs would need WOTC to produce (for example) 5 different official Efreeti variants to have an adventure in the City of Brass. 75% of Efreeti could use the vanilla statblock. A noble warrior Efreet could have the same statblock, but with Str, Dex, and Con saves, Parry as a reaction, and 4 attacks. A noble mage Efreet could have 19 Int and know a bunch of fire spells. Piece of cake. That takes seconds of prep time. What I think would be more useful would be a statblock for the Efreeti Sultan, a CR20+ legendary creature.

 

[bleezy]

Also, it's a lot of fun to have your PCs fight 50 or 60 guys at a time. It doesn't take as long as you'd expect- just be sure to play it fast and loose when moving globs of monsters around on the map. Grab a cluster of tokens and plop them down "about" 12 spaces away from where they started. Roll 8 dice at a time when a PC is surrounded. If a monster has 3 attacks at +3 but the PC has 22 AC, just give the monster +6 and only roll once. Don't nitpick every detail (unless a PC's life depends on it) and the battle can be pretty smooth, even if running on a virtual tabletop (and especially if playing theater-of-the-mind)

 

[Jester David]

The problem I see is that high level monsters feel like they should be more scarce. I love high level monsters, but it just doesn't make sense to me that there would be that many, for a great number of reasons. I agree it would not be fun to fight dragons for 5 levels, but it could be fun to fight a dragon and its minions for 5 levels.

That is generally the approach I take.

True. But it's nice to have some options beyond dragons and fiends. Or different types of campaign where there's more monster killing.

 

[dave2008]

True. But it's nice to have some options beyond dragons and fiends. Or different types of campaign where there's more monster killing.

Absolutely, but what exactly?

1) You've got the lich (or worm that walks) for high level undead
2) You could go the demigod and its minions routes
3) You've got the mad wizard and his/her minions
4) I just realized we don't have a Gibbering Orb, that could be the basis of a high level aberration adventure
5) Rouge golem(s)
6) You could use angels or other celestials. I think that could make for an interesting high level adventure.
7)I think beholders could make a good high level adventure and a hive mother could be a high CR threat
8) I can't believe I haven't mentioned the Tarrasque before. Or anytype of slumbering behemoth / leviathan type of adventure
9) Kraken and/or dragon turtle for sea adventure

Well I guess there a lot more options than I realized and most of these could be handled with mostly what we have already. I still want more high level monsters though

 

[Jester David]

4) I just realized we don't have a Gibbering Orb, that could be the basis of a high level aberration adventure

Gibbering orb is a good call.

7)I think beholders could make a good high level adventure and a hive mother could be a high CR threat

I was a little disappointed a hive mother wasn't in Volo. Or a Huge beholder so people can take advantage of the Beholder Ultimate Tyrant mini.

8) I can't believe I haven't mentioned the Tarrasque before. Or anytype of slumbering behemoth / leviathan type of adventure

Gargantuans were a fun creature from 2e and 3e that are basically kaiju. They'd be cool.

 

[steeldragons]

Imagine 1e modules that were never solved/adventured.

White Plume Eruption: The Archmage Keraptis, astride Dragotha the undead dragon, with his legion of monstrous minions, several of whom are armed with artifact-caliber weapons have begun their conquest to take over the world.

Against the Giants: ...is, literally, against the giants. They got their act together. No one took out their leaders one by one and now ACTUAL ARMIES of giants are beginning a coordinated conquest of the mortal realms.

March of Horrors: Acererak the demi-lich got bored with expanding its consciousness through the multiverse and returned to the mortal plane. The "jeweled skull" is floating through the world, gathering all evil creatures in its wake of horrifying unstoppable magical power: taking on the abilities and powers of all of the souls its eaten over its ages. Limitless spells of all types. Proficiency with all types of weapons (mastery with several), [anti]Paladinic powers. Druidic shapechanging to give itself mortal-seeming forms (still with jeweled eyes and teeth, in any shape, naturally.

The Caverns Found: Iggwilv's vampire anti-paladin daughter was awakened, defeated those who disturbed her rest and has vacated Tsojcanth. With an army of unique monsters, the evil humanoids from the surrounding mountains, and a small horde of indentured demons, Drelzna is on the move to return her mother from the land of the dead and bring/offer her father the Material Plane to call his own.

And so on. Just take the standard AD&D (or D&D) modules and carry them to their logical outcomes if no "heroes" showed up (or succeeded) in time.