Classic Traveller - session report with reflections on the system [long]

[Water Bob]

Recently I've been re-reading my Classic Traveller books, and yesterday I GMed a session.

Mmmm. Classic Traveller. Amazing game. One of my favorites.

But one change I do like is the introduction of a "special duty" line on the basic PC generation tables, which allows extra skills rolls. I did include that on my tables.

I'd advise against this. The reason is not so obvious, but MT made a change in the way skills were used. In MT, Skill-1 means a +1 on a skill throw of 2D6.

First off, on a 2-12 scale, with only 11 outcomes, and a pyramid distribution skewing towards a 7, a +1 modifier is a very good bonus. +2 is an excellent bonus. +3 or more is an outstanding bonus.



With Classic Traveller, the impact of skill levels are weighted, depending on the task at hand. If throwing 8+ in combat, then a +1 per level of skill is used. Most engineering problems are thrown using a +2 bonus per Engineering level. When throwing to avoid problems in Zero-G, the task uses the Vacc Suit skill at +4 per level. Then again, the throw to revive a passenger from low berth is +1 and only +1 if the operator has Medical-2 or higher.

The MT rule for Special Duty does two things--it makes a characters skills higher, and it gives the character more skills.

And, this has a strong potential to break the system.

Note how in books like Supp 1 - 1001 Characters and Supp 4 - Citizens of the Imperium, there are plenty of characters with few skills. Many have only two skills.

This is because Classic Traveller does not always penalize a character for not having a skill. For many skill attempts, having no skill at all is the same as having Skill-0. You just throw 2D6 with no modifier.

In order to keep the system healthy, you should not add rules from other editions (or House Rules) that increase skills. You should also use the hard survival rule--meaning, if a Survival roll is bricked, then that character is dead. The player must start again with a new character and go through character generation.

The Survival Rule and the way CT awards skills are a finely balanced system that is easily broken if you start adding things to CharGen like the Special Duty roll.

We were using a rule that if you fail your survival roll by 1 - which he did - you can muster out instead with a shortened (2 year) term and a -1 penalty to the roll for special duty.

Continuing from the above, I suggest that you do not use this (called the soft survival rule), which is optional. Using it means that there is no reason, ever, to stop generation. If a character is trying to get a pilot and finally gets one, he might stop at Term 1 or Term 2 for fear of losing the pilot character. Using that optional rule, there's no reason to stop. If the character fails survival, he'll just muster out right then. And, that again leads to character skill bloat.

Hard Survival also make Scouts real heroes--men in a very risky profession that demands respect.

I suggest using the rules as written. Use the Hard Survival Rule. Don't add Special Duty. And use the Draft--PCs only get one attempt at enlistment, and if they fail that, they must submit to the draft.

With a 2D6 system, a Skill-2 is a hard core professional, especially if the character is getting more than +1 per skill level.

Classic Traveller characters look like they don't have a lot of skills. But, think of CT characters has just showing the areas where they excel. Their skill list is not a complete list of everything the character knows as in many other RPGs.

Likewise an attribute of 2 or 3 does not mean the character is handicapped. Instead, it means the character as at the lowest point of human ability in that area--lowest healthy point. Think of Jeremy Davies playing Corporal Upham in Saving Private Ryan. He's probably got a CT stat of STR 3. Still healthy. Still in the Army. But, not one of the bulked out Recon guys.

Although the original generation rules give very low-skill PCs - whereas I thought the addition of the special duty roll made our PCs, even the ones with only a term or three, interestingly well-rounded.

I think that you're just used to modern games where a character is rated on every skill--instead of just those skills where he excels.

Look through Supp 1 - 1001 characters. Your PCs should look more like that.



Experience - Also, look to the Experience chapter in the Traveller Book. A player can use those rules to immediately improve skills by 1 level, or learn new skills, straight out of character generation, using those rules (though the bump in skill level is not made permanent for several years).

We did't have any combat yesterday - and Traveller combat is ridiculously brutal, hence the need for two PCs - but the rules for social encounters, dealing with officials, and the like all worked smoothly.

For combat, use armor if you can find it. Move from cover to cover (using the cover rules from The Traveller Book), and use Evasion when out in the open.

Remember, it takes TWO PHYSICAL STATS at zero to get a Serious Wound (like a gunshot, knife stab, or broke bone). One Physical at Zero is just something Minor, like a bruise--Minor Wounds can be healed completely in 30 minutes if a Medic is around.

 

[Water Bob]

I(1) Making the system (ie 2D + DMs = target number) work properly, rather than just be a ritual covering for GM fiat.

As I noted above, Skills are not always taken at +1 per skill level. They can be more, as in the general Engineering roll (where skill provides +2 per skill level), or they can be minimized (as in the low berth revival roll of +1 if Medical-2 or better). Sometimes attributes are important to the roll and give a modifier. Sometimes attributes are extremely important to the roll (as when 1D, 2D, or 3D for attribute or less is thrown). And, sometimes attributes are not considered for the throw at all.

A standard DEX check is 2D for DEX or less. Tech Level and Law Level checks are also done this way: 2D for TL or LL or less.

The task to throw a blade in combat is 18+, using + entire DEX for a modifier and + entire Blade skill.

Sometimes, D66 is used. Rumors and sometimes encounters are thrown this way.

 

[pemerton]

I'd advise against this. The reason is not so obvious, but MT made a change in the way skills were used. In MT, Skill-1 means a +1 on a skill throw of 2D6.

First off, on a 2-12 scale, with only 11 outcomes, and a pyramid distribution skewing towards a 7, a +1 modifier is a very good bonus. +2 is an excellent bonus. +3 or more is an outstanding bonus.

<snip>

The MT rule for Special Duty does two things--it makes a characters skills higher, and it gives the character more skills.

And, this has a strong potential to break the system.

I don't agree with this.

Special Duty means that characters generated using the basic system have skill numbers comparable to those you get using Mercenary, High Guard or Merchant Prince.

The difference between PCs geneated basic-style and PCs genereated using those "advanced" systems was obvious well before Mega-Traveller was published. Andy Slack addressed it in his Expanding Universe article in White Dwarf, and suggested a D6 roll for skills per term: 1 to 4 equals that many skill rolls, 5 = roll on a table you're not normally allowed (similar to the Special Duty results in Mercenary et al), 6 = no skill.

The Traveller Book addresses Scout skill shortfalls (due to lack of commission and promotion) by saying "2 skills per term", and MegaTraveller extends that to all services that don't have ranks.

We didn't use the "two skills per term" variant. Rather, the tables we used had Special Duty entries of 3+ (7+) for Scouts, up to 7+ (11+) for Barbarians, roughly reflecting the difficulty of getting position or promotion in that service. Meeting the first roll gets an extra skill. Meeting the second roll gets either two extra skills, or choice of one skill.

I didn't do anything more rigorous than eyeball the Mercenary skill check numbers to see how this compares, but I think it produces roughly comparable outcomes. It's also comparable, in outcome, to Andy Slack's suggestion, but better grounded (in feel terms) as a 2D throw.

In order to keep the system healthy, you should not add rules from other editions (or House Rules) that increase skills. You should also use the hard survival rule--meaning, if a Survival roll is bricked, then that character is dead. The player must start again with a new character and go through character generation.

<snip>

I suggest that you do not use this (called the soft survival rule), which is optional. Using it means that there is no reason, ever, to stop generation.

Your claim here is false, for two reasons.

First, in many cases it is possible to fail survival by more than 1, and hence - under the rule we were using - the PCs is dead. As I reported in my OP, this happened to one of the PCs being generated (a belter, who needed 8+ for first term survival and had a roll below 7).

Second, there are plenty of cases in Book 4 where survival can become automatic (eg Bureaucrates, Diplomats, and Doctors), and one of the PCs being generated in our session was a Diplomat with automatic survival. The player still stopped after 3 terms because he didn't want to risk aging rolls.

With Classic Traveller, the impact of skill levels are weighted, depending on the task at hand. If throwing 8+ in combat, then a +1 per level of skill is used. Most engineering problems are thrown using a +2 bonus per Engineering level. When throwing to avoid problems in Zero-G, the task uses the Vacc Suit skill at +4 per level.

I'm aware of this. I commented on it in a post that was a couple of posts upthread of yours.

Skills are not always taken at +1 per skill level. They can be more, as in the general Engineering roll (where skill provides +2 per skill level)

The +2 per level is found in the Traveller Book. It is not in the original edition of Book 1. Its introduction into the later edition makes the system inconsistent in its treatment of Engineering, because Book 2 - both in the discussion of repair following drive failure, and in the discussion of repairs during combat - says +1 per level of Engineering expertise, and the Traveller Book retains this despite introducing the "+2" rule into (its equivalent of) Book 1.

With a 2D6 system, a Skill-2 is a hard core professional, especially if the character is getting more than +1 per skill level.

<snip>

I think that you're just used to modern games where a character is rated on every skill--instead of just those skills where he excels.

<snip>

Experience - Also, look to the Experience chapter in the Traveller Book. A player can use those rules to immediately improve skills by 1 level, or learn new skills, straight out of character generation, using those rules (though the bump in skill level is not made permanent for several years).

I'm familiar with the Experience rules in Book 2.

And I don't really need a lecture on being "used to modern games". The first time I ever generated a Traveller character was around 1980, so I would say I have a reasonable familiarity with the system.

But your claim about the meaning of skill-2 is, in my view, exaggerated. For instance:

* A character with Medical skill is not a doctor or surgeon until reaching expertise level 3.

* The system has rules for the impact on command of Leader-3, and on recruiting of Leader-4.

* The trade system allows for up to Broker-4.

* The Manoeuvre/Evade software operates in increments of 1/4 Pilot expertise with fractions rounded down - which suggests that some characters, at least, are envisaged as having Pilot-4 or better.​

A character with expertise of 1 is clearly not a novice, but at least for many skills is hardly an expert. A character with Medical-1 knows enough to help deal with one-stat-at-zero unconsciousness, but not enough to help with the management of, and revival from, cold sleep berths.

Some skills are obviously different from this - vacc suit, for instance, where there is generally no penalty for having no expertise and a +4 per expertise level for many tasks - but I think what that tells us this that there really is no such thing as being an "expert" vacc suit user (whereas clearly there is such a thing as being a medical expert).

 

[Water Bob]

Special Duty means that characters generated using the basic system have skill numbers comparable to those you get using Mercenary, High Guard or Merchant Prince.

The difference between PCs geneated basic-style and PCs genereated using those "advanced" systems was obvious well before Mega-Traveller was published.

But, the problem is that Advanced Chargen in Book 4+ has more opportunity to die in chargen, too. You're rolling once per year instead of once per term, which means more than one Survival throw.

And, you're cramping that by using the optional soft Survival rule.

That's why your PCs have long terms and higher skills than what is normal for a standard CT game.

Andy Slack addressed it in his Expanding Universe article in White Dwarf, and suggested a D6 roll for skills per term: 1 to 4 equals that many skill rolls, 5 = roll on a table you're not normally allowed (similar to the Special Duty results in Mercenary et al), 6 = no skill.

I'm well aware of Andy Slack's articles and those in White Dwarf. I'm the one who assembled all the WD articles together into two big omnibus files that has leaked out on the net several years ago.

The +2 per level is found in the Traveller Book.

It's in Starter Traveller, too. And, it was just one example. There are other examples of a skill allowing more than a +1 DM per skil level. There are examples of a skill level providing less than a +1 DM per skill level, too.

And I don't really need a lecture on being "used to modern games". The first time I ever generated a Traveller character was around 1980, so I would say I have a reasonable familiarity with the system.

Dude, I'm just trying to help you. Play your game as you want. I'm just pointing out what it doesn't look like to me that you see.

And if I came across as snarky, I apologize. Again, I was just trying to help here.

But your claim about the meaning of skill-2 is, in my view, exaggerated. For instance:

What I've said is true. And, I didn't say that skills higher than 2 were not possible.

If you look at Supplement 1, that gives you a good look at how CT characters should turn out. There are 1001 of them listed there. The characters you posted are all on the higher end of what is shown in 1001 Characters, supporting what I've said.

A character with expertise of 1 is clearly not a novice, but at least for many skills is hardly an expert. A character with Medical-1 knows enough to help deal with one-stat-at-zero unconsciousness, but not enough to help with the management of, and revival from, cold sleep berths.

You shouldn't think of Skill-1 being the equivalent among all skills. That's MT thinking where every Skill-1 = +1 DM.

In CT, skill is evaluated on its impact on the task. How important is expertise to this task roll?

With a low berth revival roll, obviously, skilled expertise does not have a huge impact on the task. The controls must be heavily automated and simple for the novice to use since Medical skill is not even required to attempt the task, and even Medical-1 has no impact on the roll.

Then again, if we're talking about avoiding mishaps in a zero-G environment, Vacc Suit skill has a HUGE impact on the task. At +4 DM per skill level, a Vacc Suit-2 person will always make the 10+ throw.

You can't compare a Medical-3 doctor with a Vacc Suit-2 experienced operator. The skills are applied differently.

Some skills are obviously different from this - vacc suit, for instance, where there is generally no penalty for having no expertise and a +4 per expertise level for many tasks - but I think what that tells us this that there really is no such thing as being an "expert" vacc suit user (whereas clearly there is such a thing as being a medical expert).

What?! Vacc Suit-2 will always make the 10+ avoid mishap roll. No failure possible! I'd call that an expert.





Again, it's your game. Play it as you see fit. I was just trying to help you.

 

[pemerton]

That's why your PCs have long terms and higher skills than what is normal for a standard CT game.

<snip>

If you look at Supplement 1, that gives you a good look at how CT characters should turn out. There are 1001 of them listed there. The characters you posted are all on the higher end of what is shown in 1001 Characters, supporting what I've said.

"Should" here just means "will, given the probabilities on the tables". By introducing a Special Duty line on the charts, I increase the number of skills per term (accept for later edition Scouts, who get two skills per term by default - ie more than the Scouts would in 1001 Characters, which (I'm pretty sure) reflects the earlier approach where Scouts get fewer skills because they don't have commissions or promotion). As I explained in the OP, this was a deliberate choice; and, as I said in the OP, I like the PCs it led to.

For my part, I don't think the characters we rolled up are overpowered. One noble has Bribery-1, Air/Raft-1 and Gambling-2 (one full terms plus one "failed survival by 1" term). The other has Pilot-1, Leader-1 and Jack-o-T-1 (one term, then failed re-enlistment).

The 6-term merchant has Jack-o-T-3, Vacc Suit-1, Eng-1 and Steward-1, and then picked up one weapon skill in mustering out. That's not a particularly long skill list, and is notably strong only in the Jack-o-T.

The Diplomat has Liasion-1 (an automatic skill), and then 1 level also in eight other skills in the course of 3 terms. Without special duty, that would be 5 skills (4 for terms, 1 for position). 3 extra skills at expertise level 1 is not going to break the game - what it does is yield expertise in areas (Carousing, Recruitment, Interrogation) that didn't exist in the orignal rules.

The pirate has an automatic skill (Brawling-1) and then 5 skills in 3 terms; the naval character has 8 skills in 4 terms (which is what a Traveller Book Scout would receive for 4 terms served).

Of six characters, four have one skill each with more than one level of expertise (Gambling-2, two characters with Gun Cbt-2, and Jack-o-T-3).

These aren't overpowered skill totals: looking at the Mercenary characters in The Sable Rose Affair, for instance, 7 out of 10 are 34 or older (ie 4+ terms), and even the two 26 year old (ie 2 term) characters have 12 skill ranks each, and one of those has one skill (Grav Vehicle) at level 2.

As far as your comment about "long terms", the characters are ages 22, 24, 30, 30, 34, 42: ie 1 term, 1 + a half term, two at 3 terms, one at 4 terms, and one (of the six) at 6 terms. Looking at the Rogues in Supplement 4, 8 of the 40 have 6+ terms, and 18 of the 40 have 3, 4 or 5 terms. Only 14 (ie about 1 in 3) have 1 or 2 terms. That is a profession with a 6+ survival number and a 5+ reenlistment requirement.

I don't see any evidence that the characters we generated have atypically long terms or strikingly high skills (either in breadth, or in level of expertise). What we do have is enough to cover a range of bases in play (operating the ship, dealing with officials, dealing with the shadier side of things, and driving the ATV). The actual experience of play showed this to be a nice, well-rounded set of characters. Each brought something distinctive to the situation, including some nicely incongruous mixes - like the engineer/medic also being the guy who is best at dealing with bureaucracy; the somewhat bitter, long-serviing merchant who's seen it all (Jack-o-T-3) also being the one who knows how to prepare and serve a meal (Steward-1); the one-term noble who seems a bit of a wash-out being the pilot; etc. And there's more of this to come up, like the Diplomat/spy being the ATV driver. The only character close to one-dimensionality is the pirate, and even he has Vacc Suit-1, which has the potential to throw him into some unexpected situation that doesn't involve him being a heavy bruiser.

Dude, I'm just trying to help you. Play your game as you want. I'm just pointing out what it doesn't look like to me that you see.

And if I came across as snarky, I apologize. Again, I was just trying to help here.

<snip>

Again, it's your game. Play it as you see fit. I was just trying to help you.

Not snarky, but condescending. You seem to be projecting some issues you have coming out of some other debate about Classic Traveller PC-gen, rather than engaging with what I actually posted.

 

[pemerton]

Here are the pre-gens from Adventure 2 (Research Station Gamma) - not wildly different in capabilities from the PCs we generated:

 

[Water Bob]

I don't see any evidence that the characters we generated have atypically long terms or strikingly high skills (either in breadth, or in level of expertise).

What I'm saying is that, the way you've set up the game, there's no player choice at all about continuing. The player, when generating a character, will always try for as many terms as he can get--and most likely get them. He'll never voluntarily stop character generation with a young character with just one or two terms.

In fact, the only reason he stops is if he's forced to by a roll or if he's been in the service so long that, if he goes another term, he risks the old age modifiers to his attributes.

Not snarky, but condescending.

Well, it wasn't intended. Just one long time gamer discussing the fine points of the game with another.

You seem to be projecting some issues you have coming out of some other debate about Classic Traveller PC-gen, rather than engaging with what I actually posted.

LOL. And, I could say the same about you reading the negativity into what I wrote when I did not mean it in that way at all.



Again, it's your game. I'm not playing in it. If you're happy ignoring what I suggested, then rock on brother. Enjoy your game.

 

[pemerton]

What I'm saying is that, the way you've set up the game, there's no player choice at all about continuing. The player, when generating a character, will always try for as many terms as he can get--and most likely get them.

Why?

Why would a player not stop due to aging concerns? (This actually happened.)

Why would a player not stop due to not wanting to fail a survival roll? (A survivial roll was failed, and a PC died during gen.)

You seem to be confusing some "soft survival rule" with the rule that we actually used - which is that, if you fail your surivival roll by exactly 1, you can muster out with a half term, no mustering out benefits, no position or promotion roll, and a -1 DM on the special duty roll.

This is what I mean when I say that you don't seem to be engaging with what I actually posted.

 

[Water Bob]

Why?

Why would a player not stop due to aging concerns? (This actually happened.)

I said that this is a reason a player would voluntarily stop under your set-up. But, there is no reason a player would stop chargen voluntarily after only one or two terms.

There are no young men under your system. Your system leads to a game of older characters.

Why would a player not stop due to not wanting to fail a survival roll? (A survivial roll was failed, and a PC died during gen.) You seem to be confusing some "soft survival rule" with the rule that we actually used - which is that, if you fail your surivival roll by exactly 1, you can muster out with a half term, no mustering out benefits, no position or promotion roll, and a -1 DM on the special duty roll.

I see. And, if they fail by 2+, then the character dies? That is better than what I thought I had read of your post.

To more more teeth into that, though, you might consider the risk of permanent damage, too. Maybe something similar to the Aging Table.

This is what I mean when I say that you don't seem to be engaging with what I actually posted.

You're right here. I should have read that more closely.

My comments stand about Special Duty, though. That should remain a MT rule, not used in CT. MT is a different game with different mechanics.

Though, it would probably have lower impact on the system if you used the UTP in your CT game. The UTP was designed for CT originally anyway. I don't because CT loses some of its charm and customization when you standardize the task system like that. Skills tend to be 1 leve to +1 DM all the time.

 

[pemerton]

I said that this is a reason a player would voluntarily stop under your set-up. But, there is no reason a player would stop chargen voluntarily after only one or two terms.

There are no young men under your system. Your system leads to a game of older characters.

Yet we have a 22 year old and a 24 year old. Both are quite young.

My comments stand about Special Duty, though. That should remain a MT rule, not used in CT.

In CT as originally published Scouts got one skill per term. By the time of the Traveller Book, they get two per term. Even the designers recognised that the tables in the original books produced characters who are rather light on for skills.

When I compare our PCs to some that I posted about - like the pre-gens from The Sable Rose Affair, or from Adventure 2, or from the Rogues section of Supplement 4 - they don't seem particularly incongruous in breadth or depth of skill.