D&D 4E Classless 4e

Andur

First Post
I don't think you can have it both ways, if you want the default classes then you have to give up variety of features/powers. If you want variety of features/powers then you have to give up variety in what makes the classes different.

Looks to me like you want "one man armies", and what you will end up getting in a large sampling is pretty much a whole lot of "identical builds" which optimize all the choices at any given point. In a small sample of 5 or 6 people who play the game it wo't be a problem, but let it out in the "wild" and the one that does the most damage whilst withstanding the most damage will pretty much always be the "preferred choice"...
 

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Sylrae

First Post
I was thinking about including it for my personal games. so that would be around 5-6 and one to 2 of those are not such heavy rpg gamers. plus i discourage munchkinism. (VIA chance. I let my players know that the more munchkinny they are the more I will up the challenges against them. they raise their chance of dying by optimizing. thats why I only had one player who continually tried it in my past 3e games. he'd optimize, so id put him in situations that required what he was lacking, and id set it up so the rest of the group couldnt help him. cruel, maybe, but the more i did it the less munchkinned all his characters became (at least in my game, in the other game he played in they had a whole team of powergamers).

It's like the 3e house rule where DMs would let you swap specific class features from one class with those of another. Only we'd give values to everything, so you could swap it all. That way there is no need to wonder if two class abilities as evuivalent, cause we would have figured it out in advance.
 

Sylrae

First Post
The point isn't a single super build, but to have options and a plethora of selections that I feel are severely lacking due to the new multiclass system. Since classes are more equivalent than they used to be, it should be easier to do away with them altogether, and have them just be possible groupings of options. So you could have a rogue with a ranger's quarry instead of a sneak attack, or you could have the 50/50 fighter wizard. They wouldn't have everything, cause the amount of things they got would be limited to be equivalent to what they get in RAW. The number of features wouldnt change, just availability.
 

Sylrae

First Post
I was thinking maybe we could tie the stat values chosen to the abilities you got. so like. if you take a wizard's HP, all the wizard like powers would be one price, but melee powers would cost you more points.and if you had the same HP as the fighter, wizardy powers would cost more. and if you picked a middle value, then you'd pay slightly more for both of them, but roguish powers would be the cheap ones.
HP type Wizardy Roguey Fightery
wizardy 1 1.25 1.5
roguey 1.25 1 1.25
fightery 1.5 1.25 1

what do you think of this idea?
 

Exen Trik

First Post
Sylrae said:
I was thinking maybe we could tie the stat values chosen to the abilities you got.
Good idea, but I think you have the application of it backwards. How about this instead?:

-Start with wizards hit points and healing surges
-Give a bonus to them depending on the powers chosen.
-The amount of hit points vary by role and level, with defender powers granting twice as much (more or less) than striker and leader powers. Controller powers grant none (since it is already set to a wizard's hit points).
-Encounter, Daily and Utility powers effect hit points, while At-Wills determine healing surges

No idea how to handle class features, proficiencies or the like with this method. It could probably be tied to At-Will powers as well.
 

Sylrae

First Post
hmm. Maybes. this is something really interesting and something I would like to see, but I wouldnt be developing this system myself until I actually switch over to fourth (I'm in the middle of a 3.5e campaign and it it won't be changing to fourth for at least a couple months). When I have time I'll start on something like this, but until then I figured I would try to spark the idea in case someone else wants to make it.
 

Hokahej

First Post
Congratulations guys, this thread made me think and register so I could share what I thought up. :D

At first I was thinking about grouping powers by source, but then I realized that the system I was building in my head would allow the creation of a wizard with the toughness of a fighter. I also realized that power source actually doesn't do anything at all, but party roles (controller, defender, leader, striker) are crucial to 4th edition gameplay. I followed this trail of though and the final result is written below. It's a fairly long post, but that's what can be expected of 5 hours worth of reading, thinking and writing. ;)

You start by picking a party role: defender, leader, striker. I didn't list controller because there is only 1 controller class in the PHB1 so you don't really have anything to mix with in the first place. Anyway, the role you selected determines basic hit points (15 for defenders, 12 for leaders and strikers), the hit points gained per level (6 for defenders, 5 for leaders and strikers), as well as number of healing surges per day (9 for defenders, 7 for leaders, 6 for strikers). Constitution score and modifier apply as normal.

Second you select your weapon and armor proficiencies. The number of proficiencies you pick depends on the role you selected (defender selects 11, leader selects 7, striker selects 5), but all classes start out proficient with cloth armor and two simple melee weapons of the player's choice. In addition players can choose from the following:

ARMOR
-leather armor proficiency
-hide armor proficiency (requires leather armor proficiency)
-chainmail proficiency (requires hide armor proficiency)
-scale armor proficiency (requires chainmail proficiency)
-plate armor proficiency (requires scale armor proficiency)
-light shield proficiency
-heavy shield proficiency (requires light shield proficiency)

WEAPONS
-proficiency with all simple melee weapons
-proficiency with 1 military melee weapon (requires proficiency with a simple melee weapon from the same category - heavy blades, axes, etc.)
-proficiency with all military melee weapons (requires proficiency with all simple melee weapons)
-proficiency with 1 superior melee weapon (requires proficiency with a military melee weapon from the same category - heavy blades, axes, etc.)
-proficiency with all simple ranged weapons
-proficiency with all military ranged weapons (requires proficiency with all simple ranged weapons)
-proficiency with shurikens (requires proficiency with daggers)

IMPLEMENTS
-proficiency with holy symbols (only works for divine powers; a Holy Avenger weapon counts as a holy symbol for paladin powers)
-proficiency with rods and wands (only works for warlock powers)
-proficiency with Pact Blades as implements (only works for warlock powers, requires proficiency with rods and wands)

You can also sacrifice a number of proficiencies to gain an equal amount of bonus feats. The exact number is up to the DM, but as a general rule 3 ought to be enough (we don't want to exaggerate).

Next you have 2 points to spend on defense bonuses (fortitude, reflex, will). You can get a +1 bonus on two different defenses or give a +2 bonus to a single defense.

After that you select starting skills. Defenders select 4 skills from the combined skill lists of all defender classes (until so far that means fighter and paladin), leaders select 4 skills from the combined skill lists of all leader classes (cleric and warlord), and strikers select 5 skills from the combined skill lists of all striker classes (ranger, rogue, warlock). Skill selection is important because you need to be trained in Religion and worship a deity to use divine powers and select class features from divine classes (paladin, cleric), trained in Arcana to use arcane powers and select features from arcane classes (warlock), and trained in a physical skill to use martial powers and select features from martial classes (fighter, ranger, rogue). Physical skills are the skills that can get a check penalty from wearing certain armor (Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Stealth, Thievery).

The fifth step is selecting class features. Defenders select 3 class features from all defender classes. They must take one and only one feature that allows them to mark enemies (because marking is what makes them defenders, but we don't want them to be overpowered). With the PHB1 you can choose between the paladin's Divine Challenge and the fighter's Combat Challenge. The other features from which you can choose are Combat Superiority, Fighter Weapon Talent, Lay on Hands, and Channel Divinity (both Divine Mettle and Divine Strength). In order to allow the system to perfectly recreate the paladin as presented in the PHB Lay on Hands comes with 1 bonus healing surge and +1 to one defence (fortitude, reflex, will). As mentioned before you need to be trained in Religion and worship a deity to select the paladin's features and trained in a physical skill to select the fighter's features.

Leaders select 3 features from all leader classes. They must take one and only one feature that allows them to heal (because healing is what makes them leaders, but we don't want them to be overpowered). With the PHB1 you can choose between the cleric's Healing Word and the warlord's Inspiring Word. The effects of the two are identical, but with this custom class system they determine your class for purpose of selecting feats and paragon paths so choose accordingly. The other features from which you can choose are Channel Divinity (both Divine Fortune and Turn Undead), Healer's Lore, Combat Leader, and Commanding Presence (select either Inspiring Presence or Tactical Presence but not both). As mentioned before you need to be trained in Religion and worship a deity to select the cleric's features and trained in a physical skill to select the warlord's features.

Strikers select 4 features from all striker classes. They must take one and only one feature that allows them to inflict additional damage (because damage is what makes them strikers, but we don't want them to be overpowered). With the PHB1 you can choose between the ranger's Hunter's Quarry, the rogue's Sneak Attack, and the warlock's Warlock's Curse. The other features from which you can choose are Fighting Style (either Archer fighting Style or Two-Blade Fighting Style but not both), Prime Shot, First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent (requires proficiency with daggers and shurikens), Eldritch Pact (select 1 of the 3; requires Warlock's Curse class feature), and Shadow Walk. As mentioned before you need to be trained in a physical skill to select the ranger's and rogue's features and trained in Arcana to select the warlock's features. Since Prime Shot is a class feature for both the ranger and the warlock you can select it if you are trained either in Arcana or any physical skill.

Regardless of which role you wish your class to perform you can also trade a feature for an additional armor/weapon/implement proficiency.

Finally you also get to pick powers. At level 1 you select 2 at-will powers (3 if you are Human), 1 encounter power, and 1 daily power from all classes that match your role. So (with PHB1) defenders pick fighter and paladin powers, leaders pick cleric and warlord powers, and strikers pick, ranger, rogue and warlock powers. If you took the Eldritch Pact feature you do not have to pick the pact's at-will power unless your DM insists on it. At level 2 you again pick 1 utility power from any class that matches your role. However, at higher classes you can pick powers from all classes. The limitation is that if you pick a power from a class that does not match your role, it must be of lower level. For example a level 3 defender can pick any level 3 fighter or paladin power, or he can pick a level 1 daily power from another class. A further limitation is that again you need to be trained in Religion to use divine powers, trained in Arcana to use arcane ones, and trained in a physical skill to use martial ones.

This last rule can be used to spice up wizards as well. Whenever your wizard learns a new encounter/daily/utility spells he can instead gain an encounter/daily/utility power of lower level from another class. Note however, that while a wizard normally learns 2 daily/utility spells when he levels up you can only select 1 power from another class. A further limitation is that yet again you need to be trained in Religion to use divine powers and trained in a physical skill to use martial ones.

For the purpose of selecting feats (including multiclass feats) and paragon paths you are considered to be a ...
- cleric if you have the Healing Word class feature
- fighter if you have the Combat Challenge class feature
- paladin if you have the Divine Challenge class feature
- ranger if you have the Hunter's Quarry class feature
- rogue if you have the Sneak Attack class feature
- warlock if you have the Eldritch Pact class feature
- warlord if you have the Inspiring Word class feature

Note: if you wish to use cleric, paladin and warlock powers and pursue the paragon paths of these classes it is highly recommended to also be proficient with the appropriate implements, even though they are not listed as a requirement. Also, it is possible to not match any of the above requirements if you select Warlock's Curse without also selecting Eldritch Pact. This is a little tricky and would best be avoided.

Speaking of feats, here are 3 new heroic tier ones designed specifically for this system:

DEFENDER
Requirement: you are not already a defender; you can only take this feat at level 1
Effect: When selecting class skills, features, and level 1 and 2 powers you can select them from defender classes (fighter and paladin). However, you still cannot select Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge class features. You also still need to be trained in the relevant skill.

LEADER
Requirement: you are not already a leader; you can only take this feat at level 1
Effect: When selecting class skills, features, and level 1 and 2 powers you can select them from leader classes (cleric and warlord). However, you still cannot select Healing Word and Inspiring class features. You also still need to be trained in the relevant skill.

STRIKER
Requirement: you are not already a striker; you can only take this feat at level 1
Effect: When selecting class skills, features, and level 1 and 2 powers you can select them from striker classes (ranger, rogue, warlock). However, you still cannot select any out of Hunter's Quarry, Sneak Attack, and Warlock's Curse. You also still need to be trained in the relevant skill.

However, if there are 3 or less players the DM might change the feats like this (changes are in capitals):

DEFENDER
Requirement: you are not already a defender; you can only take this feat at level 1
Effect: When selecting class skills, features, and level 1 and 2 powers you can select them powers from defender classes (fighter and paladin). However, you cannot select BOTH Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge class features. You also still need to be trained in the relevant skill.

LEADER
Requirement: you are not already a leader; you can only take this feat at level 1
Effect: When selecting class skills, features, and level 1 and 2 powers you can select them from leader classes (cleric and warlord). However, you cannot select BOTH Healing Word and Inspiring class features. You also still need to be trained in the relevant skill.

STRIKER
Requirement: you are not already a striker; you can only take this feat at level 1
Effect: When selecting class skills, features, and level 1 and 2 powers you can select them from striker classes (ranger, rogue, warlock). However, you cannot select MORE THAN ONE out of Hunter's Quarry, Sneak Attack, and Warlock's Curse. You also still need to be trained in the relevant skill.

This way the present players can take over the crucial ability of the missing party role.

You can also use these feats to replace a wizard class feature with a class feature from another class. For example a wizard trained in Religion could at level 1 select the Leader feat to replace his Implement Mastery with Healing Word.

That's pretty much it. It's not completely freeform, but it does allow much more freedom than core multiclassing. I'll finish with an example custom class.

BARD

Role: leader
Armor: cloth, leather, hide
Weapons: simple melee, simple ranged
Proficiencies traded for bonus feats: 3
Bonus feats: Defender, Striker, Skill Training (Acrobatic or Thievery)
Defense bonus: +1 reflex, +1 will
Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, History or Streetwise, Religion (need it for powers)
Class features: Inspiring Word, Inspiring Presence, Artful Dodger
At-will powers: Bolstering Strike (because it uses Charisma), Commander's Strike
Encounter power: Guarding Attack
Daily power: Bastion of Defense

It's not a perfect bard, but for me it will do until we get the PHB2. You can also rename all the powers to feel more bardic (like Inspiring Word would become Inspiring Song and Bastion of Defense could become Ballad of the Last Stand).

If you want more realistic bard you can swap Bolstering Strike with Sly Flourish in which case you no longer need the Defender feat and could replace it with either another Skill Training or perhaps Linguist. You also won't need to be trained in Religion anymore (unless you want some cleric powers) so you can replace it with another skill.
 
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Sylrae

First Post
Your idea, while nifty, and an improvement over basic 4e, and easier to balance than my idea, isn't exactly what I'm talking about.

the whole point is to have the ability to make a controller with extra hit points or a striker with controller class features, or whatever. frankly I'd like to entirely drop party roles so you don't have to choose one, though they may be useful for pricing abilities via point buy.

but I should theoretically be able to make a 50/50 fighter mage, with half the class features of each, but with the ability to choose up to his level with either one.

However, it does allow alot more versatility, and is a great fill-in until we come up with a complete system.

You made multiclass playing where you have to stay within your role. (much better than 4e's non-multiclassing). The goal is multiclassing between roles as well. really, a good multiclass system would probably make your system be just as balanced, but would also allow the other kinds of mixtures.

Also yours needs to be decided at the beginning, so really its an on the fly class designing system. I was hoping more for *I'm level 6 but I don't want to be a fighter anymore, I want to start leveling as a warlock*, type scenario. then if you change your mind again at level 14, thats fine too. it wouldn not matter.
 
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Sylrae

First Post
I shoudl say though, I do commend you idea on how to custom tailor a class before play. Your idea for qualifying for feats is kindof neat, my solution would be to change feat prereqs to not require classes, but to require properties that a number of classes could (or will) meet at differing levels.
 

Sylrae said:
Your idea, while nifty, and an improvement over basic 4e, and easier to balance than my idea, isn't exactly what I'm talking about.

the whole point is to have the ability to make a controller with extra hit points or a striker with controller class features, or whatever. frankly I'd like to entirely drop party roles so you don't have to choose one, though they may be useful for pricing abilities via point buy.

but I should theoretically be able to make a 50/50 fighter mage, with half the class features of each, but with the ability to choose up to his level with either one.

However, it does allow alot more versatility, and is a great fill-in until we come up with a complete system.

You made multiclass playing where you have to stay within your role. (much better than 4e's non-multiclassing). The goal is multiclassing between roles as well. really, a good multiclass system would probably make your system be just as balanced, but would also allow the other kinds of mixtures.

Also yours needs to be decided at the beginning, so really its an on the fly class designing system. I was hoping more for *I'm level 6 but I don't want to be a fighter anymore, I want to start leveling as a warlock*, type scenario. then if you change your mind again at level 14, thats fine too. it wouldn not matter.


I think this can be done, and done well. I haven't done the analysis to balance it, but I'd say you would make it a feat-based approach.

You'd have the weapon poficiency "group" feats (like weapon proficiency: military melee), some feats that account for the various racial benefits (like Low Light Vision, or +2 saves), feats that give various class benefits (like Sneak Attack), health feats (granting additional healing surges) and then some "power feats" that would open access to various sets of powers (a "Martial Power" feat would grant access to all the martial powers, and perhaps provide a +2 Fort Defense bonus). You'd probably have to add some requirements for some of the class/race/power feats (like Sneak attack might required the Martial Power feat).

A base first level character would start with the current controller hit points/healing surges, cloth armor proficiency, simple melee weapon proficiency, +2 to a single stat, skill training in two skills, and would be required to select a power feat. The character would then have "n" additional feat slots to spend on character building feats, and would have the usual assortment of 2 at will, 1 encounter, and 1 daily power. "n" might be 12, say, which is probably enough to replicate the current fighter class (though I haven't done the math).

So you might choose the Marial Power feat, several weapon and armor proficiencies, and health feats to build up a martial character -- but be able to select from among the various martial powers that you meet prerequisites for. Or you could take fewer weapon and armor feats, but take Martial and Arcane power, and open up accesss to a wider range of powers. Want more skills? Take a Skill Training feat.

Once those first level choices are made, you could choose to "multiclass" by taking a Power feat at later levels, or focus within your existing power area. The game would maintain some balance as you are limited by the number of powers you choose. There would obviously be some broken combos that would have to be handled either by adding prerequisites or some other approach, but I think it would work pretty well.

The challenges are building the class/racial feats, figuring out what "n" is, and finding the broken combos.
 

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