Claw, Claw, Bite, Karate Chop?

[Caeleddin]

Patryn - Natural attacks follow TWF. A creature with a bite attack will get primary hand, off-hand and bite as a full attack. Try again.


So, you take a swipe at me and expect me to stop after you had the last words. Let me think on this..... NO!

You want this to stop, you either a) not have involved me at all, or b) slink off yourself.

 

[mvincent]

Wrong again. It said that you cannot use it as part of the Flurry. Nothing about being able to use it afterwards AS PER NORMAL TWF.

The FAQ stating:
"A natural weapon (any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry." seems pretty clear.

I'm not positive that I read you correctly, but are you arguing that you can use both a flurry and natural attacks in a full attack action? That interpretation makes no sense to me as it entirely negates the above FAQ statement.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn - Natural attacks follow TWF. A creature with a bite attack will get primary hand, off-hand and bite as a full attack. Try again.

He does not get his bite as a result of the TWF rules.

He gets his bite *regardless* of whether he is following TWF rules.

In fact:

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

Translation: Natural weapons do not follow TWF rules. They follow Secondary Natural Weapon rules when used alongside natural weapons in a Full Attack. Secondary Natural Weapons do not suffer TWF penalties.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)

A secondary natural weapon is neither a primary hand nor an off-hand. Accordingly, it does not suffer any penalty associated with a primary hand or an off-hand.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm not positive that I read you correctly, but are you arguing that you can use both a flurry and natural attacks in a full attack action? That interpretation makes no sense to me as it entirely negates the above FAQ statement.

That's roughly his position. Succinctly, the Flurry of Blows restrictions only count when you are making the attacks from the flurry.

Take a Monk 1, for instance.

When he chooses to make a Flurry of Blows when Full Attacking, he gains two attacks at -1 / -1. As soon as he has made that second attack at -1, he is no longer subject to the Flurry of Blows restrictions.

 

[Caeleddin]

Patryn - Make up your damned mind. Either you are saying that natural attacks can be used as part of the full attack after the Flurry (which follows the SNA rules) or they can't (following your interpretation of the Flurry rules). Stop flip-flopping like soap opera drama queen on a good day.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Patryn - Make up your damned mind. Either you are saying that natural attacks can be used as part of the full attack after the Flurry (which follows the SNA rules) or they can't (following your interpretation of the Flurry rules).

When he says "He gets his bite *regardless* of whether he is following TWF rules", he means in the example you gave.

A more general answer, not specifically related to your example, would be "He gets his bite *regardless* of whether he is following TWF rules, assuming he's making a Full Attack and not Flurrying".

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Patryn - Make up your damned mind. Either you are saying that natural attacks can be used as part of the full attack after the Flurry (which follows the SNA rules) or they can't (following your interpretation of the Flurry rules). Stop flip-flopping like soap opera drama queen on a good day.

'Scuze me?

I am saying, and have consistently said, two things:

1. When making a Flurry of Blows, you are limited to unarmed strikes and special monk weapons.
2. Natural weapons are neither of these, and therefore cannot be used with Flurry.

If I make a full attack, and elect to use Flurry, I am bound by that decision and may not use natural weapons.
If I make a full attack, and elect to not use Flurry, I may use natural weapons following the rules for mixing natural weapons and manufactured weapons.

So, before you accuse someone of flip-flopping, it's generally a good idea to check on whether or not they've flip-flopped.

If you can find a post from me that states that you can use natural weapons while Flurrying, then I'll concede this point. But here's a hint: You won't find it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Thanks, Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And just as in the last Natural Weapons thread, I'm going to have to put a mod's hat on for a moment.

Patryn, Caeleddin, stop bickering. You're both tending to make this unpleasant for the bystanders... I'd appreciate it if you could follow Patryn's earlier suggestion, and agree to disagree.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Caeleddin]

Hyp - Then perhaps you should tell him to stop using my name in vain. What did you expect? That I will sit here and do nothing while he takes swipes at me? Not going to happen. Sorry.