Claw & Stake (Buffy/Gargoyles Fan d20 Project)

Talaysen, I think you're being a bit naive to say that the rules for Gargoyles and Slayers can be created separately. That's sort of like saying that Fighters and Wizards can be developed separately. If they are to appear in the same setting, then they need to be balanced with each other in mind. Doing that without warpage can be done, but it isn't necessarily easy.

And... just take them out and put them in your own setting? Well, I think you're making a bit light with the amount of work that goes into creating a setting. You'd gain friends if you considered that in your work. Especially when Eden Studios Buffy is already out there. It isn't d20, but Buffy fans are likely to turn to it than wait for you....
 

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*Sigh* Ok. I guess I haven't said everything as clearly as I might have, so I'm going to try to go through it all point by point. I'm also going to try to be diplomatic about this, but if I seem irritable, it's because I am.

1. Regarding separation/extraction of specific elements: yes, some things will have to be developed to fit both settings - but only those elements that fit in both settings. Magic is a part of both settings, and works similarly; virtually anyone can find and cast a spell, but it takes skill, will and power to cast it successfully. Combat is a part of both settings. Cutting-edge technology is a part of both settings and villains of low to nigh-omnipotent power levels are a part of both settings. Gargoyles are a part of one setting. The Slayer is a part of one setting. Details such as these will remain constant, will not be developed with the other in mind, and may be removed and separated with relative ease.

2. Regarding balance: both shows are, in my opinion, similar in terms of power levels. You have relatively normal humans, supernormal humans, and nonhumans of moderate to great power. All the characters improve over time: look at Buffy, Willow and Xander in Season 1 and look at them again in Season 5. (Actually, look at Willow in the S6 premiere, which I consider to be about the height of her power - before she succumbed to her addiction.) Likewise, look at Lexington, obsessed with technology, in Season 1 and Lexington the technology expert at around the end of Season 2. As for the gargs themselves - they would have to have a level adjustment trait no matter what, and I think the exact adjustment would be about the same.

3. A side note: elements from both settings will likely be altered or ignored. I think that will happen more with the Buffy part than the Gargoyles part. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I do not see magic as inherently addictive, so assuming the majority of the developers agree with me, the whole "magic is a drug" bit will be discarded. (And it seems clear to me that it was magic, not power, that was the problem for Willow; certainly that was made clear towards the end of S6.) In fact, I'm prepared to ignore the bulk of Season 6 for the purposes of this setting, if the others agree. (On the Gargoyles end, I think the part that's most likely to be ignored is The Goliath Chronicles - for the most part. I'll get back to that. I'd also like to bring in some clans that might not exist in the present day of official universe - Irish gargs, for example - but that's a personal whim and may not come to pass.)

4. Regarding your final comment, Umbran: I am trying to consider that in my work. Perhaps I haven't made that clear. Perhaps you'd like to tell me what I could do to satisfy you in this regard, because at this point, I don't know. I have invited you to come on board and work not only on whichever parts of the main project you're comfortable with but also on a section discussing which elements belong, properly, in the Gargoyles universe and how to run a campaign set solely in that setting. I will extend that offer again; heck, I will up the ante. If we're going to have people doing all this work on Gargoyles-related material anyway, why not spin it out at the same time into a separate Gargoyles d20 document? I see Claw & Stake as the main thrust of this project because that's the campaign I plan to run, but I see no reason why the bulk of our work can't be applied in favor of those fans who want Gargoyles on rye, hold the Buffy, as well.

And, once again, I see even Claw & Stake as Gargoyles with Buffy frosting. The tone will be closer to Gargoyles. The main setting focus as I see it will be the East Coast (specifically New England and, to a lesser extent, New York), and I see that as a more Gargoylesque region, all in all. There are only two Slayers, and both are in southern California. There are - let's say a few hundred Gargoyles worldwide; based on comments made by producer Greg Weisman (who's currently answering questions about the Gargverse through the medium of Ask Greg - I'll post the link if you don't have it), I'd say there are more clans out there than we've yet seen. In both settings there are humans who fight the good fight - or the evil fight, in some cases. Will there be demons and vampires? Yes, but why can't such beings fit into a Gargoyles framework? Will there be an Initiative? Yes, but clandestine organizations have been a part of Gargoyles for some time - just look at the Illuminati, and to a lesser extent, the Quarrymen. (Like many fans, I consider the first episode of The Goliath Chronicles - the only one written by Greg - to be canon, so the Quarrymen exist, to my mind; but the episodes that follow are...questionable at best. Still, I think the implication that the Quarrymen aren't exactly in full view of the public was there from the beginning.) Look at the secret parts of Nightstone Unlimited. My point is: as I see it, Gargoyles will truly be the dominant element. I just think that certain elements of Buffy would work well with it, even though they aren't absolutely necessary; it gives me and the others a chance to exercise a little more creativity than we'd be able to if I tried to remain true to either universe; and it's something that would be fun to try.

But as I said, I would love to work on a separate Gargoyles d20 manuscript, using the Gargoyles-appropriate material from Claw & Stake. I would love to have your help with that. Given that all this work will be done anyway; given that there's plenty of material on both universes out there; there's no reason why we can't try to satisfy more people. And if this doesn't satisfy you, perhaps you could try to tell me what, exactly, would?
 


There are, as I recall, certain laws and regulations protecting derivative, noncommercial fan work of this nature; and even where such protections are questionable at best, few companies, to my knowledge, go out of their way to quash fans. I don't think Disney is one of them. (There are limits, obviously, but there are a large number of Gargoyles sites out there containing a vast amount of material, including not only fan work but also screenshots and sounds from the show. If Disney was going to act, I'm sure they would have done so by now - and actually, they've started encouraging the fans, lately, to the point of providing door prizes for Gathering 2002, the recent Gargoyles convention.) If memory serves, there are already fan projects defining such settings as Middle Earth, etc. in terms of the d20 system.

Now, I'm not sure we can legally do this as an "official" d20 manuscript, complete with OGL and such - I'll have to look into that - but again, fan works have a fair amount of leeway. As long as we don't go around exploiting other folks' work too badly, I doubt anyone will mind. Heck, we'll probably reference certain applicable D&D/d20 books specifically (without actually reprinting the material in question, of course), and I doubt that any publisher would object to the free advertising.
 
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Sounds good, Talaysen. More power to you, as Gargoyles is one of my all-time faves as well. Remember to throw in a healthy dose of time travel rules as well as a "Scottish mercenary" template (MacBeth!). ;)
 


I'm not particularly well versed on the Gargoyles universe, I only have a passing familiarity with it. I am pretty conversant with the Buffyverse however and wanted to offer some insight, storywise not legally.

"Buffy/Angel" has a few very specific items within its mythos. Would gargoyles be considered demons by the world at large? It seems within the Buffy/Angel-verse, the only "outsiders" are either very powerful magic users or demons (granted Buffy and Angel seem to see anything from outside our world as demons, be they good, indifferent, or evil).
If the gargoyles are considered demons or half demons, then they may be hunted by any or all of the following groups: The Watchers Council, the Scourge, Vampire Slayers (ala Buffy, Kendra, Faith), any of the gang from Angel Investigations, the Initiative, and a few others. This all of course depends on when in either series (during what seasons) you have your campaign set.
This would breed some interesting conflict as the Gargoyles try to prove themselves to other evil-battling forces that would look on them as part of the problem, not the solution.

A random thought is that the introduction of Wolfram and Hart is an interesting aspect to this game and they could have their designs on the Gargoyles.

The whole Buffy/Angel-verse mythology was shaken at the end of the 7th season of Buffy/4th season of Angel when Buffy and her Scoobie gang awakened every potential slayer in the world and made them full slayers and the Watcher's Council was destroyed. This could lead to a very different looking Buffy/Angel-Gargoyles verse. Teams of Slayers out hunting vampires, demons, and gargoyles.

Spellcasting in Buffy appears to be pretty skill based. Everyone from experienced sorcerers like Ethan Rayne and the Circle of the Black Thorn to novices like Xander Harris can, with the proper gear, at least participate in casting spells.
This indicates to me that magic ought to be skill based with a lot of rules covering group casting of spells. There should also be an element of unpredictability...um how many times did Willow Rosenberg's spells misfire? Anyone remember Amy the Rat?

I think in merging the mythos of Buffy/Angel and Gargoyles, you have to consider what each does to the other's universe and the consequences of turning a particular notion or two on its ear.

I am NOT badmouthing in any way this idea. I am a big fan of RPing the Buffy/Angel universe as they create a great RPG game world.
And if it's D20, so the much better. The Buffy/Angel RPG currently out is really very poor and I would look forward to a D20 version.
I will read with interest, and offer more ideas as this continues, if they are desired.
 

Hmmm.
I do hope my questions/comments didn't kill this thread or dampen the enthusiasm of the OP.
This is still an elegant interesting idea.
I would like to see some ideas floated for a Buffy/Angel D20 port (sans Gargoyles), but I won't hijack this thread and post a new one.
 

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