Cleave ans AoO

[frankthedm]

Once per round, after you have dropped an opponent with a melee attack, you may act as though you had not spent an action to drop that opponent. If you drop an opponent with one of your regular attacks, you may make an attack against another opponent you threaten using the same base attack bonus (including any reduction for iterative attacks) as the attack that dropped the first opponent, plus any other modifiers that would normally apply to your attack roll against the second opponent. If you drop an opponent with an attack of opportunity, it does not count against the number of attacks of opportunity you may make in that round.

Now did you intend for a character who kills a schlub to take a non-attack related full round action? That is the way your varient sounds like it might work.

I prefer...
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it helpless, dead or destroyed, you get an immediate extra melee attack against another creature within reach as a free action. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Unlike a normal free action, you may use a cleave during a readied attack.

If, on an AoO, you deal a creature enough damage to make it helpless, dead or destroyed, you may count that as a use of the cleave feat rather than the use of an AoO.

Mine also eliminates "drop" arguments. By making it a free action, the cleave can no longer work on an AoO.

 

[Joker]

Stay down you stupid horse. I said DOWN!!! *whack* *whack*

 

[Thanee]

The way I justify it is: your attacks are so powerful, dropping a weak opponent is almost effortless. The basic effect I'm trying to get is: once per round, you can drop an opponent as a free action.

Then do so. Turn the attack into a free action retroactively (if possible). That only works on your turn, since you cannot do free action outside your turn.

It's cool to give the Cleaver *the* attack back, that totally makes sense. But with the AoO exception, you give the Cleaver a *new* attack, in addition to the old one (somewhat similar to how Cleave does it now); that doesn't work well in that context, I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FireLance]

Now did you intend for a character who kills a schlub to take a non-attack related full round action? That is the way your varient sounds like it might work.

It was not something I had considered, but I would not have a problem with that (naturally, YMMV). I do like high-powered, cinematic games, and the image of a fighter cutting down a weak minion and then charging the BBEG in the same round, or a cleric casually dispatching the mook harrassing him and then calling a flame strike on the boss works for me.

 

[FireLance]

Then do so. Turn the attack into a free action retroactively (if possible). That only works on your turn, since you cannot do free action outside your turn.

It's cool to give the Cleaver *the* attack back, that totally makes sense. But with the AoO exception, you give the Cleaver a *new* attack, in addition to the old one (somewhat similar to how Cleave does it now); that doesn't work well in that context, I think.

Well, it depends on what you mean by a new attack. The way I worded the ability, if the Cleaver drops an opponent with an AOO, he gets to make another AOO in the same round, but only if another opponent provokes an AOO from him. If nobody else provokes an AOO, he doesn't get to make another attack. This avoids the problem I've always had with the current way that Cleave works, which allows the Cleaver to attack a second opponent if he drops an opponent during an AOO, even if the second opponent does nothing to provoke an AOO from him. This gives the Cleaver some benefit for Cleaving during an AOO (an extra AOO, if anyone else provokes one from him), without giving him free rein to attack anyone he chooses.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Can you cleave (or greater cleave) when doing a AoO?

Who put you up to starting this hot debate again?

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

While I realize, that it is technically possible, I do not allow it, because I give the Cleave attack (which is with the same attack modifiers as the original attack) the same restrictions as the original attack (that is, you can only Cleave into targets you could have attacked with the original attack also), during an AoO, your viable targets are restricted to exactly one, therefore you cannot Cleave, since you just ran out of viable targets.

Bye
Thanee

I'd heartily recommend Thanee's interpretation for 3E & 4E over any house or cleave-specific situational rule. The last thing this game needs is more rules.

 

[Thanee]

Well, it depends on what you mean by a new attack. The way I worded the ability, if the Cleaver drops an opponent with an AOO, he gets to make another AOO in the same round, but only if another opponent provokes an AOO from him. If nobody else provokes an AOO, he doesn't get to make another attack. This avoids the problem I've always had with the current way that Cleave works, which allows the Cleaver to attack a second opponent if he drops an opponent during an AOO, even if the second opponent does nothing to provoke an AOO from him. This gives the Cleaver some benefit for Cleaving during an AOO (an extra AOO, if anyone else provokes one from him), without giving him free rein to attack anyone he chooses.

Yeah, but the difference is, that you give the Cleaver a (potential) attack in the future, which is completely unrelated to the AoO itself. There is absolutely no need for that.

Normally, you gain an attack that way, which is related to what you did before, because you have to use it immediately, and your targets have not changed.

Bye
Thanee