D&D 5E Cleric Modifications

[Einlanzer0]

While I like many of the design choices for 5e clerics, I feel they really dropped the ball by not allowing room for a completely non-martial wizard-style cleric. I also think it's very arbitrary how some domains offer Divine Strike and/or bonus proficiencies while others offer Improved spell casting and would prefer being able to choose between those two independently of domain choice. I want to come up with a very simple way to revise the cleric class to account for this without undermining the official cleric OR having to design a whole new class.

Here's what I've come up with so far: Clerics are now a default d6 HD class with no armor proficiency and the same weapon proficiencies as a wizard.

At 1st level, in addition to choosing your domain, you also choose your clerical path - the Path of the Crusader or the Path of the Prophet. This essentially becomes a layer to your domain "subclass". So, essentially, you would become a Tempest Crusader, or a Life Prophet.

Crusader grants the standard proficiencies for RAW clerics and a HD bump to d8. The only change from RAW on this path is that your domain choice will always grant Divine Strike in place of Improved spellcasting at 8th level.

Prophet grants a new feature at 1st level - Prophet's Rebuke, which allows you to add your Charisma modifier to your AC when in light or no armor once per short rest as a reaction. It also grants the Knowledge Domain for free at 1st level. Bonus Armor or Weapon proficiencies for your second domain choice are replaced with bonus skill/tool proficiencies or languages. Lastly, your 8th level Domain ability is always Potent Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike.

Now, my question is - does Prophet seem balanced? Should I add a few spells to their spell list to help put them on par with Crusaders? I'd rather their AC bonus not be an always-active passive ability, because I would want Prophets to mostly operate as wizards do.

edit - instead of granting Knowledge domain for free, I may come up with a psuedo-domain unique to Prophets that they gain automatically with an expanded spell list which crusaders don't have access to. If I go this route, are there any particular features or spells you would suggest? I would be inclined to draw bonus spells primarily from the Bard list.


edit: here's what I've come up with so far:
Revised Cleric

HD D6
no armor or shield proficiency
wizard weapon proficiency

1st level – Select Path of Servitude – Path of the Crusader or Path of the Prophet (in addition to domain)

Crusader – Crusaders are the vast majority of clerics, and represent the foot soldiers and vanguard of a particular faith or religious order. HD increases to D8 (or just +1 HP/level; not sure yet). Gain light/medium armor and shield proficiencies, and simple weapon proficiency. 8th level domain feature is always Divine Strike (untyped unless specified otherwise). Bonus weapon/armor proficiency where appropriate for domain choice.

Prophet – Only a handful of clerics become prophets - they are the chosen leaders of their faith/religious order, often ordained by and possessing a strong connection with their god(s). They typically eschew physical combat and are instead highly accomplished orators and miracle workers. No HD increase or extra proficiencies. 8th level domain feature is always Potent Spellcasting. Bonus weapon proficiencies from domains apply to skill/tool/languages, or a bonus cantrip. Gain Revelation Domain (in addition to chosen Domain), with the following features:

Revelation Bonus Spells (bonus spells for 6th-9th level instead of 1st – 5th):
11th – Move Earth, Mass Suggestion
13th – Project Image, Sequester
15th – Feeblemind, Telepathy
17th – Astral Projection, Miracle (slightly altered/weaker Wish)

1st - Prophet’s Rebuke – Gain Cha bonus to AC as a reaction once per short rest.

2nd – Channel Divinity – Revelation – Swap out one prepared spell for another, and regain a spell slot for the level of the swapped spell. Maximum is current spell level -1.

6rd – Mysteries of Faith – Once per long rest, if you receive damage, make a Charisma check vs DC 15. If you succeed, restore HP, stun your attacker, and regain a use of Channel Divinity (need to figure out the best formulas here).

17th – Channel Divinity – Portents of Doom – all intelligent creatures within a 25’ radius of the caster must succeed a composure/wisdom check opposed to caster's Charisma or suffer fear and madness (need to figure out the best formulas here)


While it may seem like I'm giving Prophets a lot, keep in mind that the proficiencies crusaders get constitute more of a direct power upgrade than the various abilities prophets get, since channel divinity competes with itself and they get no additional spellslots (outside of the new Channel Divinity) - if anything prophets sacrifice damage and attrition for more utility and versatility compared to crusaders, which is sort of the design intent.

 

[Satyrn]

What does having the Knowledge Domain mean?

Do they get all of the domain's features as they level, along with all the features of their second domain?

I don't like adding the Cha bonus to AC. They'll too easily get their AC higher than the crusader clerics in Medium armor
Unless you mean you'll give those clerics heavy armor, but even then, the prophets will be able to easily match the crusaders, and that just feels wrong.

But I like the idea you're going for, and I believe you'll find a good solution with just a few tweaks oon what you've got.


Oh, one other fiddly nitpick. I'd suggest not changing the crusader's hit die to a d8. Instead, I think you should give them +1 hp per level so that it lines up with how other hit point boosts are grantd (like the dragon sorcerer and hil, dwarf)

 

[Einlanzer0]

What does having the Knowledge Domain mean?

Do they get all of the domain's features as they level, along with all the features of their second domain?

I don't like adding the Cha bonus to AC. They'll too easily get their AC higher than the crusader clerics in Medium armor
Unless you mean you'll give those clerics heavy armor, but even then, the prophets will be able to easily match the crusaders, and that just feels wrong.

But I like the idea you're going for, and I believe you'll find a good solution with just a few tweaks oon what you've got.


Oh, one other fiddly nitpick. I'd suggest not changing the crusader's hit die to a d8. Instead, I think you should give them +1 hp per level so that it lines up with how other hit point boosts are grantd (like the dragon sorcerer and hil, dwarf)

Yeah, that's why I said it wouldn't be a passive AC bonus - it would only be usable once per short rest as a way to give them a temporary defense boost. That's also why I tied it to Cha instead of Wis - it makes more thematic sense and is also less likely to be optimized. Crusaders would still fare much better in melee combat with or without heavy armor proficiency.

The idea was that they'd get everything in the knowledge domain as they leveled along with their second domain choice, but the more I think about it the more I think I should design a new "domain" unique to Prophets with a more useful bonus spell list and some interesting/unique features that Crusaders wouldn't have access to. Then Knowledge could continue being a normal domain choice for both crusaders and prophets (although a Knowledge Crusader is sort of an odd concept, hahhah).

I thought about just doing +1 HP/level, but became concerned about how that affects HP without affecting HD and would therefore be sort of an undesired nerf for the official cleric. I'm not sure which way I'll go yet.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Prophet grants a new feature at 1st level - Prophet's Rebuke, which allows you to add your Charisma modifier to your AC when in light or no armor once per short rest as a bonus action. It also grants the Knowledge Domain for free at 1st level. Bonus Armor or Weapon proficiencies for your second domain choice are replaced with bonus skill or tool proficiencies. Lastly, your 8th level Domain ability is always Improved Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike.

Now, my question is - does Prophet seem balanced? Should I add a few spells to their spell list to help put them on par with Crusaders? I'd rather their AC bonus not be an always-active passive ability, because I would want Prophets to mostly operate as wizards do.

If it's a bonus action, and it only lasts for one round, then that's kind of terrible. If you want them to be more like wizards, then it should be a reaction to use. In fact, you could just let them add Shield to their spell list, and then they'd be exactly like wizards in that way.

 

[Einlanzer0]

If it's a bonus action, and it only lasts for one round, then that's kind of terrible. If you want them to be more like wizards, then it should be a reaction to use. In fact, you could just let them add Shield to their spell list, and then they'd be exactly like wizards in that way.

Yeah, reaction is really more what I meant, not really sure why I called it a bonus action. I'd prefer for it to stay a feature, though, so that it doesn't require using a spell slot. The idea is that it's not really magical (or is, at most, a subtle use of magic) - the prophet has such a commanding and intimidating presence that he/she can throw off their attacker's balance just with poise, castigation, or whatever else. It's basically Intimidation, but with a more specific use.

 

[Satyrn]

I'm not really sure the prophet needs any boost if all you're doing is taking away it's medium armor proficiency. Light armor is arguably better than medium armor - although I personally consider them different but equal. And no armor proficiency I'd ballpark as taking away a couple points of AC, but for a character not meant to be in the thick of things, it doesn't really seem worth much compensation. Like, give them a bonus cantrip or two, and if they care about defense they can take Blade Ward or the like.


Then you need to compensate for taking away 1 hp per level. I'd think 1 additional spell prepared per spell level would be more than enough compensation.

 

[Quickleaf]

While I like many of the design choices for 5e clerics, I feel they really dropped the ball by not allowing room for a completely non-martial wizard-style cleric. I also think it's very arbitrary how some domains offer Divine Strike and/or bonus proficiencies while others offer Improved spell casting and would prefer being able to choose between those two independently of domain choice. I want to come up with a very simple way to revise the cleric class to account for this without undermining the official cleric OR having to design a whole new class.

Here's what I've come up with so far: Clerics are now a default d6 HD class with no armor proficiency and the same weapon proficiencies as a wizard.

At 1st level, in addition to choosing your domain, you also choose your clerical path - the Path of the Crusader or the Path of the Prophet. This essentially becomes a layer to your domain "subclass". So, essentially, you would become a Tempest Crusader, or a Life Prophet.

Crusader grants the standard proficiencies for RAW clerics and a HD bump to d8. The only change from RAW on this path is that your domain choice will always grant Divine Strike in place of Improved spellcasting at 8th level.

Prophet grants a new feature at 1st level - Prophet's Rebuke, which allows you to add your Charisma modifier to your AC when in light or no armor once per short rest as a bonus action. It also grants the Knowledge Domain for free at 1st level. Bonus Armor or Weapon proficiencies for your second domain choice are replaced with bonus skill or tool proficiencies. Lastly, your 8th level Domain ability is always Improved Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike.

Now, my question is - does Prophet seem balanced? Should I add a few spells to their spell list to help put them on par with Crusaders? I'd rather their AC bonus not be an always-active passive ability, because I would want Prophets to mostly operate as wizards do.

edit - instead of granting Knowledge domain for free, I may come up with a psuedo-domain unique to Prophets that they gain automatically with an expanded spell list which crusaders don't have access to. If I go this route, are there any particular features or spells you would suggest? I would be inclined to draw bonus spells primarily from the Bard list.

I just allow clerics with domains like Life and Nature that grant heavy armor proficiency to replace that with a tool proficiency (e.g. herbalism kit) and a bonus cantrip.

If you really want to re-imagine the cleric, I'd probably look toward one or both of these sources for inspiration:

• Green Ronin's Medieval Players Manual for its unique divine classes & charisms (feat-like gifts which really feel saintly).
• Jason Thompson's Idol Priest, which is now on DMs Guild as "Priestess" for an original take focusing on a more swords & sorcery feel.

 

[Einlanzer0]

I'm not really sure the prophet needs any boost if all you're doing is taking away it's medium armor proficiency. Light armor is arguably better than medium armor - although I personally consider them different but equal. And no armor proficiency I'd ballpark as taking away a couple points of AC, but for a character not meant to be in the thick of things, it doesn't really seem worth much compensation. Like, give them a bonus cantrip or two, and if they care about defense they can take Blade Ward or the like.


Then you need to compensate for taking away 1 hp per level. I'd think 1 additional spell prepared per spell level would be more than enough compensation.

Don't forget I'm removing many of their weapon proficiencies, too, but, yeah, part of the reason I posted this here was to get feedback on what was or wasn't warranted in terms of compensation. The one thing that I do think becomes an issue with stripping melee combat proficiency from clerics is how healing spells are mostly touch range, which means that to be a good mid-combat healer you kind of have to move in and out of melee range, potentially opening up a lot of risk. I assume this is a lot of the reason why clerics have always been armor clad in D&D. This is also why I think an AC boost feature like the one I'm proposing is sort of important.

I'd kind of rather give them access to more spells instead of increasing their prepared spells by 1. However, it's also true that Wizard's have Arcane recovery in this version, and Clerics don't really have anything to compete, so your idea would help with that. One idea I had was to have a Prophet specific use of Channel Divinity to to swap out a prepared spell for something different and regain a spell slot or two in the process. I'll have to try to refine that a bit with my work on a Prophecy "domain"

 

[Satyrn]

Don't forget I'm removing many of their weapon proficiencies, too, but, yeah, part of the reason I posted this here was to get feedback on what was or wasn't warranted in terms of compensation.

I wouldn't compensate for that at all. The cantrips they'll be attacking with already make up for it.

That AC boost reaction is a fine alternative to my extra cantrip suggestion. And I see why you want it.

I'm gonna stick by my advice that all your prophet domain needs to compensate for is a little hp reduction.

 

[cbwjm]

I've done something similar with alternate domain design although much simpler than changing up the whole class.

Clerics remain the same, only the domains change becoming casters or melee clerics. Life domain might be changed to a caster domain by removing heavy armour proficiency and gaining sacred flame. At 8th they gain potent cantrips instead of divine strike. Doing this as well as any small changes to domain powers is enough to differentiate the differences for me between casters and melee clerics.

Of course, I also created a white mage which is essentially an altered wizard with access to the cleric spell list instead of the wizard but I needed a white mage for a setting I'm slowly working on.

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