Cleric multiclassed with Cleric
- Thread starter Deset Gled
- Start date
ForceUser said:
I wasn't suggesting that the cleric would be able to keep all his domains. And I agree that swapping religions like playing cards is difficult. But in the D&D world, all the dieties are very real. You can ealisy believe in all the dieties, but just choose to work for one. Then you could choose to work for another (you were good, but you were dissapointed by the lack of protection your god gave so you swap to Moradin (being a dwarf). Then you decide you dislike so much structure and want to be more free to act while still promoting good so you swap to Elhonna. The campaign world could have good relations between all the good gods so this could work.
Now let's assume that that isn't possible at all. It still seems like most people here accept one conversion. You could still slightly abuse the rules by selecting a diety that gave nice 1st through 3rd level domain spells, but not so good higher level ones. You could then convert in order to get different domains that had nice high level spells, but not so good low level ones.
Obviously, this would require a lot of role playing and story building to make it feasable. You wouldn't just say one day, "Hey, I want that other domain spell now so I will switch dieties."
I am not saying that any of this is bad or good. I was just mentioning the consequences of allowing clerics to swap dieties.
Magic Slim
First Post
I doubt that the God you just shunned would let you keep your domain spells...
Slim
Slim
Magic Slim said:
I am sorry, but I just have to say that is obvious. I mentioned that also. The whole thing that I was saying was about swapping domain spells. Meaning, you lose all your old ones, but gain new ones.
At early levels, you don't care about high level domain spells, all you care about are the ones you can use. Therefore it would be nice to have the most useful ones.
At later levels, you do care about the high level domain spells. It is even worth giving up some useful lower spells for less useful ones if it means you get a really cool high level spell.
You don't need any past diety to let you keep domain spells. All you need to do is to have the diety you choose to follow restore any cleric levels to you. If you have been a good cleric and only want to change because you decided you like the new diety's philosophy better, I see no reason why they wouldn't restore your cleric levels and you could then choose new domains to match the new diety.
It is easy to plan all of this from the beginning of how you could have the most powerful cleric through all the levels. Then, once you know what your goals are it is easy to roleplay and help write the story so it includes your objectives while still flowing well and making sense.
Personally, I see no problem with this. I just stated that if you allow conversions, it opens up these other options. In fact, that is the only reason why I see anyone wanting to use this rule. If you don't want different domain spells, why bother changing?
My take:
I figure your cleric class abilities come from your own experience and training, but you need a god's divine power to actually be able to use them. The domain powers and spells are special gifts from your patron, I figure.
You should be able to carry over your experience from one god to another. You already know how to prepare spells. Any old source of divine energy will do.
If you change gods, you should lose any of your old domains that your new god doesn't offer. (You still have to stick with domains common to both gods.) You lose all your old powers and the ability to prepare those spells. That means that all your ranks in those domain skills become cross-class. Ouch! Then you get all the powers and spells of your new domain/s.
I imagine there's a fair amount of switching between gods of close alignments. I could see a cleric of a LN god switching to a LE, for instance.
I figure your cleric class abilities come from your own experience and training, but you need a god's divine power to actually be able to use them. The domain powers and spells are special gifts from your patron, I figure.
You should be able to carry over your experience from one god to another. You already know how to prepare spells. Any old source of divine energy will do.
If you change gods, you should lose any of your old domains that your new god doesn't offer. (You still have to stick with domains common to both gods.) You lose all your old powers and the ability to prepare those spells. That means that all your ranks in those domain skills become cross-class. Ouch! Then you get all the powers and spells of your new domain/s.
I imagine there's a fair amount of switching between gods of close alignments. I could see a cleric of a LN god switching to a LE, for instance.
Wolf72
Explorer
Lamoni said:
technically if you converted you would loose those domains and gain new ones ... spell progession would be at whatever you cleric lvl is [so no, dropping one god and picking another is not multiclassing].
that said, you do realize that the roleplaying impacts (ie plot hooks for your (Evil!
) DM to use and abuse) might be pretty severe?Pagan priest
First Post
First off, I want to say very clearly that I do not want to start any sort of religious debate. What I want to do is present certain bits of information that many folks might not know.
I think that I can safely say that almost everyone reading and posting on these boards was raised in an area where the assumtion of monotheism was the norm. In other words, everybody was brought up believing that Judaism, Christianity or Islam were the only real choices. This tends to build the assumtion that everyone, everywhere follows a similar pattern... even those that believe in many Gods.
The reality of course is rather different. As clergy in the particular pagan church I am with, I regularly serve 10 Gods and Goddesses of the Celts. As do most of the others, I do have one God for Whom I have the strongest affinity. (There is that holdover from upbringing.) This does not mean that I do not look to the other Deities for inspiration or help as needed. The church as a whole has occassionaly called on other Deities for help or information within that Deity's "portfolio". I have even joined in services for foreign Deities, when it was appropriate to do so.
Bringing this into game terms, a cleric would normally serve not one but several Deities at the same time. Most likely, if the cleric was involved with a large pantheon, there would be regional sub-groups of Gods. The cleric would then serve either a particular pantheon (Examples: Roman, Norse...) or a region's sub-group (the Gods of Athens). Narrowly focusing on a single Deity within a pantheon was rare... it did happen, but it was rare. Usually, such a narrowly focused cleric would still give some small homage to the other Deities, just to avoid trouble.
Most D&D gmes that I have seen make the assumtion that all clerics are narrowly focused on a single Deity, sometimes to the exclusion of all others. This is fine if the cleric believes in some form of monotheism. I would have to say that it also simplifies things, and removes certain balance issues. Just be aware that it is not realistic, and in most cases is an over-simplification of the issue.
I think that I can safely say that almost everyone reading and posting on these boards was raised in an area where the assumtion of monotheism was the norm. In other words, everybody was brought up believing that Judaism, Christianity or Islam were the only real choices. This tends to build the assumtion that everyone, everywhere follows a similar pattern... even those that believe in many Gods.
The reality of course is rather different. As clergy in the particular pagan church I am with, I regularly serve 10 Gods and Goddesses of the Celts. As do most of the others, I do have one God for Whom I have the strongest affinity. (There is that holdover from upbringing.) This does not mean that I do not look to the other Deities for inspiration or help as needed. The church as a whole has occassionaly called on other Deities for help or information within that Deity's "portfolio". I have even joined in services for foreign Deities, when it was appropriate to do so.
Bringing this into game terms, a cleric would normally serve not one but several Deities at the same time. Most likely, if the cleric was involved with a large pantheon, there would be regional sub-groups of Gods. The cleric would then serve either a particular pantheon (Examples: Roman, Norse...) or a region's sub-group (the Gods of Athens). Narrowly focusing on a single Deity within a pantheon was rare... it did happen, but it was rare. Usually, such a narrowly focused cleric would still give some small homage to the other Deities, just to avoid trouble.
Most D&D gmes that I have seen make the assumtion that all clerics are narrowly focused on a single Deity, sometimes to the exclusion of all others. This is fine if the cleric believes in some form of monotheism. I would have to say that it also simplifies things, and removes certain balance issues. Just be aware that it is not realistic, and in most cases is an over-simplification of the issue.
This is a great perspective, one sadly lacking in most D&D writings about game religion. There is a "Too Many FR Gods?" thread going on right now that touches a little on this concept.
In FR it seems that everyone chooses one god and one church. They might giving passing recognition to another god, but they pretty much just focus on their patron deity. This is strange because many of the gods, even major ones, have very limited portfolios.
The human pantheon of FR, especially, seems to be a bunch of competing or coexisting monotheistic religions. I would think, for instance, that any god would be worshipped in the church of one of his or her allied gods. For instance, Ilmater and Torm would be worshipped in the church of Tyr, while Talos would be given recognition in the church of Auril. But each god has his or her own exclusive church.
I have heard that Hindus might recognize many gods, but choose one as a favored, or personal, deity. Generally they choose to pray to a god based on the god's portfolio and their needs. For instance they might sponsor a ritual to Saraswati, goddess of knowledge and learning, before an important exam. Some Hindu families belong to sects that say that one god, say Shiva, is supreme, with all other gods just being aspects of that god. In this type of worship one god holds a majority of available portfolio elements.
I don't know how you would incorporate "real life" paganism into, say, FR. Maybe have churches to "families" of gods, as well as sects that say their one god is the prime god?
In FR it seems that everyone chooses one god and one church. They might giving passing recognition to another god, but they pretty much just focus on their patron deity. This is strange because many of the gods, even major ones, have very limited portfolios.
The human pantheon of FR, especially, seems to be a bunch of competing or coexisting monotheistic religions. I would think, for instance, that any god would be worshipped in the church of one of his or her allied gods. For instance, Ilmater and Torm would be worshipped in the church of Tyr, while Talos would be given recognition in the church of Auril. But each god has his or her own exclusive church.
I have heard that Hindus might recognize many gods, but choose one as a favored, or personal, deity. Generally they choose to pray to a god based on the god's portfolio and their needs. For instance they might sponsor a ritual to Saraswati, goddess of knowledge and learning, before an important exam. Some Hindu families belong to sects that say that one god, say Shiva, is supreme, with all other gods just being aspects of that god. In this type of worship one god holds a majority of available portfolio elements.
I don't know how you would incorporate "real life" paganism into, say, FR. Maybe have churches to "families" of gods, as well as sects that say their one god is the prime god?
Last edited:
Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
Pagan priest said:
Clerics in D&D serve a single diety (or alignment) because that's the way the class functions. Monotheism has nothing to do with it--a character does not need even a single rank in Knowledge: Religion to recognize/believe in multiple gods. There's nothing in the rules that say that a cleric can't also recognize, respect, or even pray to other dieities--apart from the "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features" rule.
I'd guess that some gods (particularly Lawful gods) would include in their code of conduct a rule that forbids the worship of other gods. I'd guess most Chaotic gods wouldn't care who the cleric venerates, as long as the Cleric's god is #1.
But that's a campaign-specific issue.
-z
Trainz
Explorer
Hey, you could also house rule it.
You could say your cleric worships two gods, calling on one or the other depending on the task at hand. You would get two domains, possibly one from deity (A) and one from deity (B).
Obviously, that would need a home-brewed setting, or a re-shaping of an existing setting, but if it floats your boat...
You could also decide that your deity calls upon all the good and neutral deity (if you're good) depending on the task at hand, and just pick two non-evil domains. That's a great role-playing opportunity, where you could call on Kord to give your allied fighter more strength, on Heironeous to detect evil, on Boccob to dispel magic, or on Cuthbert to cast Zone of Thruth...
YMMV
You could say your cleric worships two gods, calling on one or the other depending on the task at hand. You would get two domains, possibly one from deity (A) and one from deity (B).
Obviously, that would need a home-brewed setting, or a re-shaping of an existing setting, but if it floats your boat...
You could also decide that your deity calls upon all the good and neutral deity (if you're good) depending on the task at hand, and just pick two non-evil domains. That's a great role-playing opportunity, where you could call on Kord to give your allied fighter more strength, on Heironeous to detect evil, on Boccob to dispel magic, or on Cuthbert to cast Zone of Thruth...
YMMV
Similar Threads
