Cleric: Social Outcast or Village Priest?

[Wolfwood2]

As I'm doing it....

There is a Church. Several, actually, but there's one that's particularly pervasive and powerful. And alliterative, apparently.

Clerics are not a part of this church, and in point of fact clerical magic (Theurgy) is considered blasphemous and heretical, grounds for immediate execution in some parts of the world. The Church does have associated spellcasters; largely wizards, some Duskblades, and suchlike...just devout believers, in most cases. Their god, Shar, does not speak directly to his worshippers, and does not grant them any kind of magic.

Clerics do exist, though. Each worships a single, unique god -- a "Dead God", forgotten by the rest of the world. THe cleric contacts this diety, and a soert of symbiotic relationship is established; the cleric sustains the god with his faith, the god rewards the cleric's faith with power. As his faith grows stronger, so does the power granted to him.

Informally, at least, I'm thinking that Shar does not grant spells and such because he is unable. So many worshippers, all with their own prayers and desires, most of them contradictory -- it's impossible to satisfy them all. Clerics, though, have the total attention of their god.... On the other hand, Shar can work Big Miracles when needed, things far beyond the powers of even the mightiest Dead God.

Healing magic, therefore, isn't particularly common. It's available to those willing to pay, and to risk excommunication, but it generally takes some searching. Any kind of resurrection is blasphemy of the highest order, not to mention illegal. Not to say that it doesn't happen, mind...just that if it does, it needs to be kept secret.

Still need to work out some of the details, but I'm pretty happy with it. Mechanically, there's no real change; it's all social and background stuff.

This is an interesting world, but why is Shar (or his church) so opposed to clerics of Dead Gods? Is there any reason that doesn't amount to, "I'm a selfish pig of a god who can't stand to see even the smallest scraps of faith go to someone else?"

This is compounded by the fact that so much clerical magic is obviously beneficial and helpful. Purifying food, healing the sick, curing disease, separating truth from lies.... These don't exactly seem like bad things, and I think folks might be a mite skeptical of any religion that says it is.

Now you can argue that real world religions have arbitrary restrictions, and I suppose you'd be right. I guess it's a question of where you want player sympathies engaged. If you want players to hate the Church of Shar, give 'em a harsh, "It's bad because it is, h'mkay!" philosophy. But if you want players to say, "Well heck, this seems like a reasonable point of view. I can see why they would feel that way," then give an explicit explanation of the damage that can be done if theurgy were practiced openly. (And don't wuss out with, "it damns their souls," either.)

I'll note that one interesting feature is that high level Church wizards are one of the only legitimate sources of healing. Not by casting spells directly, but high level wizards with Planar Binding (normal, lesser, greater) can conjure up celestial outsiders and bargin with them to use their powers to heal.

So how do druids fit in?

 

[kigmatzomat]

IMC each the rank and file priests are Adepts. However most small communities have a single priest and even larger towns only have a handful of adepts by the DMG. This simply isn't enough manpower to handle the things that need doing so the priesthood is supported by lay-members who have various degrees of temporal and spiritual authority. These deacons handle many of the daily administrative tasks of a temple and some have limited ceremonial duties. Any class can be a deacon though most commoners aren't deacons until they are older (higher level).

Clerics rarely stay in small villages baptizing babies and performing weddings, no matter how much they want to. They have a much greater link to their god and cannot be wasted. The simple ability to turn/rebuke undead marks them as channelers of divine power in excess of Adepts. Their combat abilities (heavy armors, decent BAB) and superior spellcasting make it so that any church should be compelled to apply as much social pressure as possible to get them somewhere their powers are useful.

Of course, I also think that clerics should be more prone to get prophetic dreams and other signs from their god when they aren't doing that thing they should do.

 

[Rolzup]

This is an interesting world, but why is Shar (or his church) so opposed to clerics of Dead Gods? Is there any reason that doesn't amount to, "I'm a selfish pig of a god who can't stand to see even the smallest scraps of faith go to someone else?"

Well, I doubt that he'd put it precisely that way.... But essentially, yes. "Thou shall have no other gods besides Me," you see. And Theurgy is a path to power that requires its practitoners to reject Shar in every respect. They can't even "pass" as a worshipper of Shar, as their own patron deity wouldn't stand for such disloyalty.

So Theurgists must, by their very nature, be outsiders....at least where the Church holds sway. The Solar Church is not an absolute power, and there are most certainly parts of the world where Theurgists are welcomed with open arms.

And the campaign will be set in an area where the Church is, while still quite influential, not nearly as strong as it is elsewhere. In this particular city, Theurgy -- along with the other forms of heretical magic -- is quite legal, and practiced more-or-less openly. The Church isn't happy about this, but there you go.

This is compounded by the fact that so much clerical magic is obviously beneficial and helpful. Purifying food, healing the sick, curing disease, separating truth from lies.... These don't exactly seem like bad things, and I think folks might be a mite skeptical of any religion that says it is.

Now you can argue that real world religions have arbitrary restrictions, and I suppose you'd be right. I guess it's a question of where you want player sympathies engaged. If you want players to hate the Church of Shar, give 'em a harsh, "It's bad because it is, h'mkay!" philosophy. But if you want players to say, "Well heck, this seems like a reasonable point of view. I can see why they would feel that way," then give an explicit explanation of the damage that can be done if theurgy were practiced openly. (And don't wuss out with, "it damns their souls," either.)

Ostensibly, sure -- that's the reason that the preachers would give. Particularly the raise dead type spells, which mock Shar's own death and resurrection (born each morning with the rising sun, dies evening as it sets). The reality, though?

It threatens the Church's power. Again, Thuergists *cannot* be integrated into the Church heirarchy, and cannot be controlled in any way by the Church. While wizards, and sorcerors can, and often do.

But I really don't want the Church to be a one-note villian, and I think that you're very right about this being a danger. Gonna need to change the presentation a bit...the Church does do a lot of good, and I need to let the players see that.

I'll note that one interesting feature is that high level Church wizards are one of the only legitimate sources of healing. Not by casting spells directly, but high level wizards with Planar Binding (normal, lesser, greater) can conjure up celestial outsiders and bargin with them to use their powers to heal.

So how do druids fit in?

Druids are champions of Nature. They're not religious figures at all, and there is no druidic religion. Many druids are worshippers of Shar, and as such are likely to hold positions similar to those of wizards. It's marginally more common for the druids to be followers of the Animist faith, which is also condemned by the Solar Church, but the two religions rarely come into direct conflict these days.

And while Thurgists cannot be Animists -- jealous gods, and all that -- neither are they condemned or persecuted by them.

 

[Remathilis]

Why would a church deny someone who is obviously gifted by divinity? "We worship X, but we shun those he favors." ?

politics man, politics.

This would work best in a setting vaguely akin to a christian medival society, esp one stooped in general ignorance and superstition. Where wizards and other casters are both rare and feared. Deities would be non-interventionist and hard to reach, so multiple viewpoints could be viewed as right. The difference between a cleric and a expert/priest is spellcasting, and the cleric is both loved and feared for his power.

The cleric takes on a holy-warrior attitude in which he is both keeper to the greater secrets and social pariah. He could be a challenge to the churches power; so the church hierarchy keeps close reins on him. At best, he is kept under an obidient heel, at worst, he is accused of witchcraft (like all spellcasters) and hunted.

Obviously, this idea differs greatly from D&D norms, esp with common magic and interventionist gods. There are middle grounds (Eberron is one). I was just looking at another way to place a spellcasting holy-man into the game without relying on the old cliches of clerics in D&D...

 

[fusangite]

politics man, politics.

This is a facile answer. Unlike the real world, when people are favoured by a god in D&D, it makes them more powerful in the temporal world. Unlike reality, in D&D, there are objectively verifyable signs of someone being favoured by a god.

This would work best in a setting vaguely akin to a christian medival society, esp one stooped in general ignorance and superstition.

That is a totally inaccurate characterization of medieval society. What, exactly, did ignorance and superstition stop?

The cleric takes on a holy-warrior attitude in which he is both keeper to the greater secrets and social pariah. He could be a challenge to the churches power; so the church hierarchy keeps close reins on him. At best, he is kept under an obidient heel, at worst, he is accused of witchcraft (like all spellcasters) and hunted.

But my original question still stands: how could the mainstream church still stand? In D&D, an army with the ability to heal itself and an army lacking that ability are not equally matched. How could the only major social institution with no magic come out on top when competing with all kinds of other groups that do have magic?

I was just looking at another way to place a spellcasting holy-man into the game without relying on the old cliches of clerics in D&D...

I think your idea of holy man as keeper of occult mysteries is a good archetype. What I disagree with is your idea that more mainstream religious entities would lack magic.

 

[Thunderfoot]

I think you're right in a way. What I did in my 2E campaign was have the entire integrated religious institution constructed around "cloistered" clerics (normal non-spell wielding) types. Those that dealt with the people and their prayers on a day-to-day basis.

All spell-casting types were, prophets, evangelists, etc. So father Bonati would conduct day-to-day services, weddings, masses, holy days etc. When brother Makal came to town, he would report to the temple, maybe give a guest sermon, do a few miracles and otherwise SUPPORT the already in-place infastructure showing that their god had real power.

Since the wandering priests had little time for political manuvering, networking and such, the very rarely ended up in positions of true power. Popular yes, but that position of pope isn't elected by the people, but by the other priests. So as the outward face or "recruiting poster" person for the faith, wandering clerics were ideal, as stalwart political champions of their faith, not really a good match; too much time away from home to know whats going on.

It is a lot harder to do this in 3.X since they have essentially done away with 0-level NPCs, but if you use a non-spellcasting priest variant to serve the purpost of the cleric, you can get by. Or low-level spells only. Okay so father Ivan may be able to cure small cuts, bumps, bruises and breaks; while brother Jose can raise the dead, he's only in town until day after tomorrow.

 

[Staffan]

I'll also note that only one Eberron religion can even be said to have a single leader, and the Keeper of the Flame recieves special powers from the Flame that make her an 18th level cleric when near it. (I suppose Olian the Grand Druid might count if you consider the Gatekeepers to be a religion.... and he's 20th level!)

I'd say Vol qualifies as well, even if most of her faithful don't know about her.

 

[Glyfair]

You're overstating the case a mite, though. While heirarchy is more important than levels, levels are hardly meaningless. Power always commands respects, and a high level cleric is one of the most powerful people in the world, capable of miracles few others can duplicate. The cleric can't walk in and order the expert around purely on the basis of his power, but the expert isn't going to treat him like a 2nd level temple guard either. The cleric is one of the church's most powerful resources, and he will get cut a fair amount of slack and deference on that basis alone.

At the same time, the cleric is such a powerful resource, he shouldn't be sitting around the temple dealing with mundane issues such as bookkeeping, paperwork, coordinating manning of temples, promotions and the like. He has godly "ummph" behind him. He should be out spreading the faith, fighting the fight, fighting the enemies of the church and the like.

When the clerics are a rare resource, then the people running things will rarely be clerics. So, they will have their own power, because they'll have knowledge of where things are, how things are being run, etc. and that's a power in it's own right. Sure, a cleric can cast spells that communicate "directly" with the diety (in Eberron that's a subject of its own), but deities tend to speak in metaphors and riddles. They have to puzzle out the correct answer from the knowledge they are given.

Both groups will have power. I'm sure those groups might be in political conflict at times. However, for both groups to operate without endangering the church will probably mean those conflicts rarely appear directly. When they do, they do endanger the church.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Whither the adept?

Certainly, this would be a radical change from the cleric as presented, as well as the nature of the divine, the role of magic, and probably polytheism.

Certainly not. IMC, adepts and experts are your basic priests and spellcasters. NPC classes, not clerics. They beseech the gods and clean the temples and serve the community. Clerics are the "adventuring arm" of the church, who go on missions for the normal (expert and adept) clergy into dangerous territory and return with tales of whatnot, or who advise those who adventure, or who go seek treasure for the church's operation or whatever. The way-out prophets and the like are Favored Souls IMC (who, IMC, don't have to be dedicated to a specific deity).

The NPC classes are there for a reason, ne? Use 'em or loose 'em!

 

[Klaus]

I'd say Vol qualifies as well, even if most of her faithful don't know about her.

The Blood of Vol don't venerate Vol herself, by the lineage of her family, and the symbolism of blood overcoming death. Vol grants no spells.