Cleric (Templar) is Up

[Quickleaf]

Conceptually, what's the difference between a Templar of a battle order and a Paladin?

 

[keterys]

Turn Undead really could be problematic in epic... and the cleric's powers they changed were... a bit off-role, so I'm okay _conceptually_ with some of the changes, except they should have added in leader Effects as part of doing so.

I'm overall just not happy with the choice.

 

[Raith5]

Looks like there were some tweaks to Strength clerics in there as well with some powers getting changed to melee weapon Str attacks instead of being Wisdom implement powers.

I'm glad the Radiant Servant the nerf. Too many charop radiant damage builds relied on it.

Looks like some of the Warpriest PP also got hit.

And, wow, yeah, Turn Undead (as well as a lot of other powers) got a big de-tuning, which, frankly, given those kinds of damage levels on a non-striker class, just needed to happen. Not that I've experienced any of it firsthand, but those changes were sound in principle.

But it is only striker level damage against a specific class of monster. Clerics (to most gods) should be able to do considerable damage to undead. It is in their job pd!

Changes like this are dispiriting (ha!) if you are a cleric focuses on anti undead stuff

 

[Colmarr]

As someone who's persisted with a Battle Cleric for over 2 years and had some hope that this article might offer something to smile about, I'm disappointed.

I know it's errata and that there was nothing in the fighter and warlord articles to buoy my spirits, but the only bone offered to me in this article is changing a few powers and the PPs Angelic Avenger and Warpriest from Wis to Str.

Against that you have the nerfing of Turn Undead, Consecrated Ground and Divine Power (IIRC, the regen wasn't previously limited to when you were bloodied).

Colour me unimpressed

I'm okay _conceptually_ with some of the changes, except they should have added in leader Effects as part of doing so.

You know, if they'd done that, I might not be so unimpressed after all.

 

[Destil]

These nerfs (particuarlly reducing the damage and area on all the devoted build's AoEs) would have been warranted if we still just had PHB1 to play with, where clerics were better than the wizard at a lot of the wizard's own areas of expertise. But given how powered up the wizard/mage has become since then and all the controllers that followed, some of this was unwarranted. Especially with bugs like Astral Weapon's Implement vs. AC not being fixed.

Turn undead could ideally have one more die at epic, just to be in line with a 2[W] power.

Illuminating Attack was one of the justifiable ones.

Warpriest just needed to require a 'cleric at-will attack power' not an encounter.

(And Versatile Master needs to be brought out back and shot. It's responsible for far too much stuff that's fine being nerfed in its stead)

Not looking forward to anything except the warlock now, I have to admit.

 

[Incenjucar]

I don't really mind de-emphasizing Turn Undead. Ever since 2e I've never liked the idea of divine characters being shoehorned into being anti-undead. That would be fine for an undead hunter PrC or feats (the cleric was originally just a way to counter a vampire, after all), but it's always struck me as a weird and troublesome thing.

 

[Camelot]

Conceptually, what's the difference between a Templar of a battle order and a Paladin?

I'd say that a templar would generally fight when the enemy invades the templar's home, whereas a paladin will go looking for the enemy to stop them before they get anywhere. I see paladins as much more warrior-like, wanting to quell a threat before it grows, whereas a templar, even one from a battle order, would prefer peace to war. Of course, I'd think that both clerics and paladins could come from the same order when the individual people interpret their teachings differently from one another.

And of course, a templar is a leader while a paladin is a defender (or a striker if you are a blackguard).

 

[Aegeri]

But it is only striker level damage against a specific class of monster. Clerics (to most gods) should be able to do considerable damage to undead. It is in their job pd!

Changes like this are dispiriting (ha!) if you are a cleric focuses on anti undead stuff

It can also be applied to elementals (Demons) and immortals (angels as an example). Given that epic tier is pretty much demons and your other option is undead, this makes Clerics supremely effective in epic tier. You may ask "Well just don't use demons and undead" and my response is "Enjoy making 90% of your own monsters for an entire tier of play then".

 

[Obryn]

This is one of those articles that I really don't understand. Simply put, while it's been a long time since I've seen a Cleric in play (because, you know, Dark Sun), they never struck me as particularly overpowered.

Yeah, some Leader Effect riders would have been nice. I can see what WotC was thinking with most of this - this is a Leader, not a Striker and not a Controller - but I think there was too much of the nerf-bat and not nearly enough to compensate for it. Except for Radiant Servant. That thing needed nerfed, bad.

My real confusion is - how popular were some of the nerfed powers? How much of an impact will that really have?

The real buzzkill is that for some reason Healing Word has officially been changed so that it no longer works with Pacifist Healer. That's kinda bizarre, IMO. Granted, I hated healics with the passion of a thousand suns, but it's a kinda crazy move.

-O

 

[Incenjucar]

When PHB1 was new, there was a lot of talk about how the cleric could out-control a wizard because it had a bunch of friendly AOEs. People may have just gotten used to that, like how we accept smog or gum on the sidewalk. I think they're basically trying to do damage control on Pacifist Healer. I get the impression that it's proven to be the Twin Strike of healing options.