Cleric undead-turning. Just how busted is it?

[Wraith Form]

I've heard comments to the effect that undead-turning is busted-a$$ broke.

How broke is it? Any good alternate options to use (from True20, or C&C, for example)?

Discuss, argue, comment and clarify.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Well, I'm playing a cleric currently. I'm not turning focused, just a full-level cleric (for turning, anyway) with a 16 Charisma.

So far, I've used it ... three times? Over the course of 14 levels. The first time, at 5th level, it worked pretty well. The second time at 10th level it worked great, against what WoW people would call "trash mobs" ... a throw-away encounter against much weaker foes ... recently, I rolled a the top result and almost max HD (1 off) and turned ... 1 of 5 foes.

Turn Undead is pretty powerful, because it's a check that can cause an enemy to flee without a save. To counter this, they give pretty much anything but mindless shambler undead at least +4 Turn Resistance. Additionally, beyond early-level skeletons and zombies, you get into the low-CR/high-HD zombies and skeletons of large and larger creatures ... for instance, a CR 4 zombie has at least 12HD, meaning a cleric of 8th level needs to roll a 22+ turning check just to be able to affect it.

Personally, it's more of an annoyance than anything else. If you can turn the undead you're facing, it's pretty much given that they're already so weak that you could blow through them without noticable resource depletion anyway. Even if it's given that you CAN turn the undead, then you have to go chasing them down through the dungeon as they flee all over the place, which at character-scale in rounds can take all ... friggin' ... night. Far longer, say, than just standing there and cutting them down. If you can smoke them with your turn check, then, really, the only reason the undead were there in the first place was to make the Cleric feel good about his Turn Undead ability ... they weren't an actual fight, just an excuse to use Turn Undead.

Personally, I get more use out of Divine feats that burn Turn attempts for other things, and I'm undead-slaying focused. It's just not worth the trouble to go chasing the buggers through the halls even if the turn DOES work and, if it's undead of any real threat, it's probably not going to work.

--fje

 

[Endur]

Part of the issue is the old Group of Monsters vs. Single big monster. The single big monster probably has too many hit dice to be turned. The group of monsters, however, can be turned or fireballed or great cleaved or whatever.

 

[Mistwell]

My problem with the turning rules is that they are 1) boring, 2) complex. That's a bad combination. I have to look up a chart and cross check numbers every time I turn? This is supposed to be d20, where we don't have to do that sort of silly stuff anymore. And it either works or doesn't? Boring.

I prefer the Complete Warrior alternative of d6's for damage, save for half. That also has problems, but at least it's not as boring or complicated.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Turning really seems to me like something that should be a Domain ability or a feat. I agree that the mechanics seem awfully fussy for something that it completely unnecessary to the game 99.8% of the time.

Once you get past the low CR undead, turning is not a significant benefit unless you are going for a smackdown. The turn attempts themselves are extremely valuable for powering up Divine feats.

There are a thousand and one ways to deal with a bunch of undead. Turning is not particularly high on that list IMO.

 

[Legildur]

There are a thousand and one ways to deal with a bunch of undead. Turning is not particularly high on that list IMO.

I don't fully agree with you. We have a party with 2 clerics going through the World's Largest Dungeon. One of the clerics is undead optimized (Radiant Servant of Pelor) and has a high Charisma and has taken all the right feats. Against the mook undead he just blasts his way through and saves us a lot of greif (particularly with incorporeal undead). But against the BBEGs he really struggles to get an effective turn in. They're often bolstered in some way or in a desecrated area. Given that destroying undead is his schtick, he's useful, but hardly gamebreaking. It took him about 3-4 goes and some good rolls to finally do away with a Greater Shadow (while the rest of us and the cleric, took some nasty hits - there were nearly a couple of extra shadows getting around).

 

[PallidPatience]

That's the point, Legildur. Any kind of undead that's higher than mook status isn't worth attempting to turn.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My problem with the turning rules is that they are 1) boring, 2) complex. That's a bad combination. I have to look up a chart and cross check numbers every time I turn? This is supposed to be d20, where we don't have to do that sort of silly stuff anymore. And it either works or doesn't? Boring.

I prefer the Complete Warrior alternative of d6's for damage, save for half. That also has problems, but at least it's not as boring or complicated.

I agree with Mistwell, in that I think that the turning rules are too complex, require a chart and additionally (as pointed out by others) just doesn't scale with adventures.

If I was to rewrite "turning" I'd probably make it something simple like "Turning forces undead to make a Will save, DC = 10+half cleric level + Cha bonus. Those that fail cannot advance towards the caster while he maintains his turning. Those that fail by 10 or more are paralysed. Those that fail by 20 or more are disintegrated". That seems simple and workable, given a little fine tuning as necessary.

Cheers

 

[rvalle]

My problem with the turning rules is that they are 1) boring, 2) complex. That's a bad combination. I have to look up a chart and cross check numbers every time I turn? This is supposed to be d20, where we don't have to do that sort of silly stuff anymore. And it either works or doesn't? Boring.

I prefer the Complete Warrior alternative of d6's for damage, save for half. That also has problems, but at least it's not as boring or complicated.

Wouldn't this mean you are pulsing Positive Engery to damage the undead and so living creatures in the area would be healed as well?

rv

 

[Pielorinho]

I prefer the Complete Warrior alternative of d6's for damage, save for half. That also has problems, but at least it's not as boring or complicated.

That's what we moved to in our game, and it makes turning a viable option without being overpowered. Our party's paladin suddenly has a very useful schtick besides just beating on people. It's been pretty fun.

Daniel