Cleric undead-turning. Just how busted is it?

[Sir Brennen]

Yah! Another chance to pimp my own Turn Undead variant. It's another damage based version with some added options. I decided on something like this for all of the reasons stated above.

One other thing about the current version is it can make the party waste resouces. If they're all buffed with spells, potions, etc. then have to chase down the undead that were turned, their buffs may run out before they encounter their opponents again. This is especially true of more powerful, intelligent undead, that would probably wait until spell effects have probably expired before returning to attack (now with a little better idea of the party's abilities as well.)

Plus, it just doesn't work like any other d20 mechanic. It's a little subsystem of it's own, about the equivalant of having every class used 3E skills except the rogue, and have them still use 2E Hide and Move Silently percentages.

 

[Nail]

Once you get past the low CR undead, turning is not a significant benefit unless you are going for a smackdown. The turn attempts themselves are extremely valuable for powering up Divine feats.

QFT

I played a cleric all the way up to 21st level. I turned undead....hmmmm...once? (And my PC was built to handle UD.) The rest of the time, I used the turn attempts for Divine Feats, etc.

Divine Metamagic...ahhhh now there's a feat!

As has been said, after 6th level or so, your Turning can't affect most of the high CR monsters you fight; too many HD and turn resistance. And as for the ones it could affect -- by that time, your party can plow through them easily without you.

FWIW, I favor a solution like what Plane Sailing wrote.....only simpler.

 

[sirwmholder]

Wouldn't this mean you are pulsing Positive Engery to damage the undead and so living creatures in the area would be healed as well?

rv

If that is the case wouldn't it act just like a lesser version of mass heal only better because it doesn't take away from your spells per day? Personally, I have never been a fan of the turning ability. I felt the ability was a bit too convoluted... an outdated mechanic that should have been dropped from the current game. I am a fan of the empowered divine feats which use the energy in some other way. If you wanted to make undead flee you should be able to replicate the effect with a new spell that has a will save... I would highly recommend Elements of Magic to accomplish this... it allows Undead to be affected with mind effects.

Thank you for your time,
Wm. Holder

 

[werk]

I think it comes down to a question of how good should it be?

If you want it to be useful, sometimes, but not amazing undead destroyer 3000, then I think it's fine.

Amazing Undead Destroyer 3000 Turning System^TM would shift the cleric into even more effectiveness, so I'd leave it alone...for balance purposes.

If you want to completely change the way the turning works, so that it deals damage or some such...well, how did turning work in previous editions? I thought it worked much like it does now, either turned or destroyed.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I wonder whether in 4e turning/energy channelling might disappear altogether?

Or turn from a funky level 1 ability to something that is more structured and grows in effectiveness throughout the cleric levels (replacing divine feats with class abilities, and turning it from 'postive energy channelling' (what?) to 'faith abilities'. That might be cool.

 

[Corbert]

Wouldn't this mean you are pulsing Positive Engery to damage the undead and so living creatures in the area would be healed as well?

rv

Not neccesarily. I use this variant in my game but consider it divine damage instead of positive energy. That way I can get around using turning as a free heal for the PCs.

 

[Ulrik]

Turning Undead can get ugly if you put enough resources into it (ie minmaxing/munchkinin it out )

My cleric uses Radiant Servant of Pelor and a Phylactery of Undead Turning to pretty much dust any Undead we encounter on the first round of combat. We faced a lich who managed to disintegrate the druid, but that was only because he had some wyvern zombies to shield him from me for a few turns. He went down the first chance I got to affect him.

The DM has mostly stopped throwing Undead at us, which I consider a bonus with all the nasty effects they have (level- and ability draining etc.) Right now we're up against an army of fire elementals and shadows, so things could get interesting again - there's a limit to how many I can turn per round...

I saw a 14th-lvl cleric over at the Character Optimization boards who could destroy two 26-HD undead per turn automatically (even if he rolled a 1 on the turn check and minimum for turning damage)...

 

[Kerrick]

To counter this, they give pretty much anything but mindless shambler undead at least +4 Turn Resistance.

Incorporeal undead and undead under CR 4ish get +2; templates get +4. No other undead gets TR.

Yah! Another chance to pimp my own Turn Undead variant.

I'd pimp my turning system, but that thread in the House Rules forum is long gone. Basically, the turn check is based on the creature's CR, not its HD, and you turn a number of undead, not a number of HD of undead. This makes it more useful at all levels, and lets the cleric turn more undead at any given level. Undead get +1 TR/3 HD to balance out the cleric's power gain. I've run the numbers on it, though I've never used it in play, and it's pretty well balanced.

 

[Legildur]

Turning Undead can get ugly if you put enough resources into it (ie minmaxing/munchkinin it out )

Yeah, a Phylactery of Undead Turning would make our 7th(8th?) RSoP outrageous. At the moment, his turn check is pretty good, but far from guaranteed. But the damage is outstanding - he always effects around 30HD worth of undead.... that tends to put a big hole in the ranks of mooks.

 

[pawsplay]

A mid-level cleric with the Sun domain can take out a lich in one turn, if he rolls decent. Apart from that...

The complaints about turn undead as a mook-defeater are unwarranted. Most things you can turn in large numbers will be destroyed by your turning anyway. A 6th level cleric can destroy a half dozen ghouls outright. Skeletons and zombies can be an issue, but only at levels where they are pathetic in melee anyway.

EDIT: It's also a good way to pick the mohrg out of the pack of zombies, i'n'it?