Cleric undead-turning. Just how busted is it?

[Spatula]

I would just change turn resistance to a modifier to the saving throw, in that case.

Turning definitely has its problems. It's mostly useless against undead that would be any sort of actual threat to the party, because of how the turning chart works and how HD scale with CR. And it's useless vs non-undead, giving the cleric a 3+/day ability that only comes into play on particular adventures, which leads to power creeps like the divine feats. Plus, the mechanic itself is a pain in the ass.

Given that good priests can spontaneously cast cure spells (that hurt undead) and evil clerics can spontaneously heal undead with inflict spells, perhaps the class ability should just be removed. Or at least tied in with the cleric's spell resources, somehow.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

On the whole, I like turning when it is "expanded" to more than turning ... channeling energy, for instance, to do things to the environment ... one point we used a turn attempt to affect an evil artifact ... I like the Divine style feats that use turns to, basically, grant different new class abilities.

I just think the mechanic for the core ability needs to be changed ... if it were an opposed saving throw mechanic or something similar, that would be simpler than consulting the charts and the like. I'd like to see something that hedged undead out instead of causing them to flee ... something that has 'some effect' on more powerful undead while being useful-but-not-all-powerful against weaker undead. I'd like to see something that hedges out undead ... that would be cool, with the cleric and those clustered about him walking through a sea of zombies. Probably with a Concentration duration.

--fje

 

[Kerrick]

The problem is the damage a cleric does is so great, the 1 point resist per turn resist point is a joke and nowhere near equal turn resists's previous potency.

1d6/2 turning levels. (A "turning level" in this case is a cleric level, or paladin level-3.) Give the undead a Fort save for half damage, with the TR as a modifier.

that would be cool, with the cleric and those clustered about him walking through a sea of zombies. Probably with a Concentration duration.

Now that's a cool idea - something like a turn check, but you have to maintain concentration on it (up to 1 round/level), and it hedges out all undead within, say, 10 feet.
Effectively, it would be a magic circle of protection against undead. You could toss in a Will save (10+cleric level+Cha) for them to get past the circle, too. It's not overpowered, because a) you're not really affecting them; b) they get a Will save; and c) it only lasts a short time - usually long enough for the cleric to get himself and/or his friends out of trouble.

 

[Nail]

I, too, changed turning: It's now "Divine Chanelling", and has a Will save, yada, yada....

My feeling on why they kept the clunky system: there were so many other things they changed, this one slipped through the cracks.

 

[Legildur]

And I reckon you should be able to target a specific undead, not just the nearest masses, and get bonuses for doing so. It would be more like a ray or other spell-like ability in that regard.

 

[billd91]

Or maybe the turn resistence provides a bonus to their save as well/instead of reducing the damage.

Maybe treat it like energy resistance, in this case positive energy. Give them 5 points per +1 of turning resistance. Then undead get either 10 points or 20 points of protection from each turning attack. It makes them virtually immune to low level clerics and maybe even the extra damage from holy weapons too (if you interpret it that way).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My feeling on why they kept the clunky system: there were so many other things they changed, this one slipped through the cracks.

My guess is that no designer is passionate about any alternative system or revamp to agitate for change, so it gets pushed to the back of the queue. With Divine feats a rather popular addition, the system is likely to ossify unless someone with real decisionmaking power really decides to invest the resources in a complete revamp.

D&D has been toying with various "Power Up" mechanics. Turning Attempts and Divine Feats are the simplest example. But we also have Wildshape uses and Wild feats. Psionic Focus is a similar concept with very different limitations.

Could these be combined in some sensible way? I think there would be resistance to doing so in Core.

 

[Nail]

D&D has been toying with various "Power Up" mechanics. Turning Attempts and Divine Feats are the simplest example. But we also have Wildshape uses and Wild feats. Psionic Focus is a similar concept with very different limitations.

Could these be combined in some sensible way?

This is all guess, but I think the answer for 4.0e is "yes". There will be a "power-up" method for every class:

Cleric: Divine Chanelling
Druid: Animal Chanelling
Fighter: Chi
Barbarian: Rage
Wizard: Mana
Rogue: Shadow chanelling
etc.

These would grant temporary bonuses given certain feats.....completely customizable. So all clerics don't turn UD, all druids don't change into an animal form, all barbarians don't go berserk, etc.

There have already been rumors about the turning mechanic becoming extinct in 4.0e.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

That could be a good approach, Nail.

A lot of problems with PrCs come from "power up" mechanics in different classes being completely independent mechanics. A Druid who gives up Wildshape progression is giving up something valuable -- he is losing both power progression and number of power ups per day. A Cleric who gives up Turning level progression may be giving up nothing -- he already can use those Turning attempts to fuel his Divine feats.

 

[Kerrick]

My feeling on why they kept the clunky system: there were so many other things they changed, this one slipped through the cracks.

My opinion (FWIW): opposed saves don't work. Turn check (1d20+level+Cha) will generally lose to the undead's Will save; vs. Fort save, the undead will generally lose. They need the 1/3 HD TR to balance things out, in which case turn check vs. Fort save isn't too bad. Given the bang-up job they did with the crafting system, and the traps system, it's no real surprise nothing was done with turning. That, and what Ridley said - they're more interested in making new systems, rather than going back and revamping old ones.