Clerics as Spontaneous Casters?

[MonsterMash]

the system that the GM for my current cleric character has adopted is that clerics have spontaneous casting, but their spells known is equal to the number of spells per day for that level (domain spell will take up that one slot per level) and the heal spells. There is no swapping of these spells on a regular basis so I can't just decide, Ok we're going dungeon crawling lets take Bull's Strength today. It does mean that though the same spell can be cast multiple times per day they aren't always all that useful, after all when you reach a new level and have to choose one spell then it can be a tricky choice of which will be useful. Personally I don't consider this unbalancing.

An example I recently levelled up to 5th and then it was a case of choose which third level spell will be most useful.

 

[Nifft]

Ask and ye shall receive. Check attachment.

The spells that you pick as universal are not the ones I'd pick. Frankly, Bless and such are too good to give for free. The spells that I picked as "class features" are things that other party members would pressure the PC to take.

-- N

 

[Xath]

There are balanced rules for spontaneous clerics in Unearthed Arcana. I've used them and they seem to work. The favored soul also works out well.

 

[Thia Halmades]

I'm trying to follow this and failing. We're talking about dumping the current Cleric model (Prep + Spon. Cast Cures) for a pure Spont. Cast model, yes? And Nifft, you're suggesting that the Cleric would then get two spell lists (??) one for their class abilities, and one for their domains, or one total spell list, where the spells you listed become part of the domain list that the Cleric has all day, every day?

What I'm reading (or think I'm reading) is this: Cleric gains X domains from which he can cast spontaneously every day, with N's mod gains additional spells as they level which are rolled into the class list, thus nerfing the drek out of Clerics, but totally altering their flavor. I think.

So ... once you take away their flexibility, what are they getting in return? Or are you just nerfing them?

LCpt. Thia Halmades (admittedly lost)

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

In someways this could actually make clerics more powerful, at the moment a Cleric with the Strength domain can cast only one Enlarge Person a day as their Domain spell, under your system they could use any number of 1st level slots on it. Same with Invisibility for the Trickery Domain, etc.

Yeah-- it's something to watch for. I've been allowing Clerics to memorize their Domain spells as many times as they have spell slots for-- because allowing them to only memorize one iteration of a spell that's supposed to be central to their faith seems a little... wrong to me.

I'm actually a little concerned that I'm beefing the Cleric up too much with this. If I have to, I can cut them down to 1/2 BAB and d6 HD. They already got a little taste of the nerf-stick when I took away everyone's free Heavy Armor proficiency.

The spells that you pick as universal are not the ones I'd pick. Frankly, Bless and such are too good to give for free. The spells that I picked as "class features" are things that other party members would pressure the PC to take.

The first question I asked about the spells on the Universal list was, "If someone can't do this, can you still call them a priest?"

If you can't bless your allies or create the most basic paraphenalia of your religion, you ain't a priest.

The restoration and raise dead spell chains were also the most basic spells that everyone wants the Cleric to have. They also have XP components and are only useful occasionally.

There are balanced rules for spontaneous clerics in Unearthed Arcana.

They work great for Druids, who have a variety of useful spells that they can use every day. They don't work very well at all for Clerics, who have a bunch of spells that are useful only in limited situations-- but are almost essential in those situations.

How many spontaneous casters take spells with XP components? Ever?

The favored soul also works out well.

Hate hate hate.

They don't get the Cleric spells they need, they get too many of the spells they don't, and they get too many other abilities, including straight numerical advantages.

They're also supposed to have a more "close and personal" relationship with their patron, but they don't even get the most feature that differentiates the various gods from each other-- their Domains.

I'm trying to follow this and failing. We're talking about dumping the current Cleric model (Prep + Spon. Cast Cures) for a pure Spont. Cast model, yes? And Nifft, you're suggesting that the Cleric would then get two spell lists (??) one for their class abilities, and one for their domains, or one total spell list, where the spells you listed become part of the domain list that the Cleric has all day, every day?

Nifft's idea is to convert a number of Cleric spells into spell-like abilities granted as class features-- so that Clerics don't get them if they choose to take a Prestige Class, and so they don't have to be memorized or occupy spell slots.

I'm proposing a spontaneous Cleric model that has elements in common with both Sorceror and Warmage. They get a very limited number of freely-chosen Spells Known, on top of one Universal list and several Domain lists. The extra Domains also give them extra class abilities and encourage Clerics to stick to their base class.

I don't think either of us is nerfing the Cleric-- if anything, I'm increasing it considerably.

What I'm reading (or think I'm reading) is this: Cleric gains X domains from which he can cast spontaneously every day, with N's mod gains additional spells as they level which are rolled into the class list, thus nerfing the drek out of Clerics, but totally altering their flavor. I think.

 

[Nifft]

Nifft's idea is to convert a number of Cleric spells into spell-like abilities granted as class features-- so that Clerics don't get them if they choose to take a Prestige Class, and so they don't have to be memorized or occupy spell slots.

Huh?

My idea is to grant extra spells known -- NOT spell-like abilities.

-- N

 

[Coredump]

Yeah, you both have the same idea. A small list of freely chosen known spells, a small list given to each of them, and domains. The only difference is korimyr gives spells in a universal list, and Niffft gives the spells on a per level basis.


I have been playing with this, but want an easier to implement method.

Idea1) Allow the caster to spontaneously swap out one spell at each spell level. Or

Idea2) The chose their spells for the day, but those act as their 'known' spells. So if they can cast 3 1st level spells, the pick 3 spells. Then they can cast one of them 3 times, or all of them once, or.....
A bit powerful, but a whole lot easier.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

My apologies, Nifft. I seem to have gotten tangled up at some point.

Had no intention of misrepresenting you.

 

[RaZZer99]

Nice thread and interesting discussion

I also have been trying to do something similar in my campaign, make the clerics less generic and more reflective of their god. And at the same time, make less work for me. Here is what I have decided upon at the moment...

+ Spells per day is equal to that of the Druid. No more +1 spell slot at each level for domains.
+ Still use the "memorize" and cast like a traditional cleric.
+ No spontaneous cures.
+ Instead, spontaneously cast domain spells.
+ Two domains granted, one at 1st and the other at 5th.
+ No turn undead.
+ Domains don't grant their granted powers. Ignore all of these.
+ Instead, each god grants their own unique special power that gets more powerful as you level and is useable based on charisma. Turn undead is now one of these powers.

I have a formal write up if anyone is interested. I have also considered parring down the cleric spell list to a very generic version as has already been done here, but I was afraid of making the cleric too weak. It's very hard to judge when I haven't been able to play test any of it, but then if anything, the PHB cleric is clearly the strongest character class and can afford to be taken down a notch slightly. I have just tried to keep balance with respect to the Druid.

 

[Nifft]

Had no intention of misrepresenting you.

No worries, just wanted to clear it up. I think we were working from a similar basic idea: reward for staying in Cleric = more spells. I just give fewer Domains.

Anyway, just to be perfectly clear, in my proposed variant above, Clerics would get spells from three sources:
1/ bonus spells known for cleric level. that's the stuff you see in italics above.
2/ domain lists. fixed list, but you choose which one(s) you get.
3/ individually selected spells known. you get as many of these as a Battle Sorcerer gets (so not that many), and you choose them from the normal Cleric spell list.

I think that your solution (small list + Domains) is interesting, but gives little incentive to stay in Cleric over moving to a PrC -- after all, there are lots of PrCs which grant bonus Domains and more.

-- N