Clerics changing dieties

[Hellefire]

I know this has been covered here, I just can't find it right now.

One of my players, who is a cleric worshipping Pelor, is having relatively evil thoughts (mainly over killing a companion NPC so that he can use the spiffy armor that NPC got last session). I told him he can do what he wants, but there will probably be issues with his god for such an act. He is considering changing to an evil god. I told him that he is having evil thoughts, if he carries them into evil acts, changing his alignment to evil is not a problem. I also told him that he would have to approach an evil religion/diety and go through some kind of ritual, but evil gods in general like stealing worshippers from good gods.

So, questions are...what kind of ritual would be required from the evil diety? And if he killed the guy for the armor, would you allow him to go through an atonement to stay with Pelor? And how difficult? Since the issue is pure greed (not as heinous as pure evil, but I try to dissuade my players from raping rules just for personal gain) I think I would make the atonement pretty harsh (something like 'give that armor and the rest of your magic gear to the church').

Thoughts?

Aaron

 

[Rl'Halsinor]

I think he needs to do atonement NOW because even though he hasn't acted out his thoughts behavior wise he, nevertheless, has carried them out in his heart and soul.

Look at it this way, for a cleric to gain spells they must meditate/pray which is the link to their diety. Unlike Arcane spells a cleric's spells must be granted by favored diety. What is Pelor thinking about his heart/mind/soul condition? Would he even grant spells now that said cleric is moving towards the "dark side"?

What if Pelor sent some of his greater clerics to bring said PC cleric back to the fold, i.e., atonement? How would this look, carry out? Some very interesting role playing opportunities here.

Rather than being reactive you, as DM, can be very proactive. And would an evil diety necessarily be trusting enough to bring a former cleric of pelor into the fold? What if said cleric had to prove himself by doing acts of evil without spells (at first)?

 

[SWBaxter]

So, questions are...what kind of ritual would be required from the evil diety?

It'd depend on the deity, but I think they'd probably be looking for two things: to burn the convert's bridges so they can't just go back the first time they feel bad, and to hit at Pelor in some way. So probably there'll be at least two elements - a religious ceremony during which the convert does something that binds them to the evil deity (human sacrifice, blood contract, that sort of thing), and an act that furthers the evil deity's agenda vs. Pelor. This will depend on the specific deity - Vecna might want to make the convert a corrupting influence within Pelor's church and so would require him to keep his conversion secret and betray Pelor's clerics from within while feeding Vecna useful information, while Erythnul might have him lead a horde of killers on a rampage through the temple quarters.

And if he killed the guy for the armor, would you allow him to go through an atonement to stay with Pelor?

"Pelor may forgive you, but I do not" - the last thing the character hears from any Paladin who catches up with him. I would set it up so the organized religion wanted nothing to do with the character (well, except for his head, that they'd be interested in), but if he was truly repentant Pelor might take him back. He'd have to make amends for the crime (returning the stolen armour to the NPC's family, helping them in some significant way) and also go on some kind of major quest for Pelor. After that, maybe Pelor would take him as a cleric, but he'd be forever outside the church proper. And well advised to steer clear of them.

 

[taliesin15]

I must say that problems like these would be minor indeed in an entirely different system--IMC, it is pantheon-based--clerics do not worship one god but all the gods. However, one can still anger the gods or individual ones, but this business of sticking to one god or else just seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.

 

[tonym]

I'd have the NPC give him the armor, saying he had a weird dream that he would be murdered for it, and that he should give it to someone he trusts.

The confused PC would wonder:

Did Pelor send the dream to the NPC for my benefit?

And should I be scared Pelor is keeping an eye on me? Or happy?

And what if the NPC's dream has nothing to do with Pelor and there really is a killer who is determined to kill the owner of the armor? Am I in danger?

...

Later, have the NPC become secretly obsessed with getting the armor back. Then, one night when the moon is full, he kills the PC in his sleep and takes it!


Tony M

 

[Gnome Quixote]

I think he needs to do atonement NOW because even though he hasn't acted out his thoughts behavior wise he, nevertheless, has carried them out in his heart and soul.

Look at it this way, for a cleric to gain spells they must meditate/pray which is the link to their diety. Unlike Arcane spells a cleric's spells must be granted by favored diety. What is Pelor thinking about his heart/mind/soul condition? Would he even grant spells now that said cleric is moving towards the "dark side"?

As somebody who plays clerics almost exclusively, I'd agree with this 100%: if the cleric is even considering this, he's already fallen. Pelor might send others to try and turn him back to the light, but would definitely stop granting him divine powers until he atoned.

 

[SWBaxter]

As somebody who plays clerics almost exclusively, I'd agree with this 100%: if the cleric is even considering this, he's already fallen.

Well, not necessarily. D&D alignments are based on actions, not temptations. I don't think it's particularly fair to penalize the cleric PC for something they haven't done yet, and the in-game explanation for this would be along the lines of "Pelor expects everyone to choose the light, but he still allows them to make the choice freely." Otherwise, nobody would know whether the cleric decided not to kill the NPC because it's the right thing to do, or because they value the kewl powerz from Pelor even more than the kewl powerz from the NPC's armour.

As well, in a by-the-book campaign, the cleric doesn't necessarily need Pelor's approval to get spells, he might now be powered by the philosophy of greed or some such thing.

 

[GreatLemur]

One of my players, who is a cleric worshipping Pelor, is having relatively evil thoughts (mainly over killing a companion NPC so that he can use the spiffy armor that NPC got last session).

Oh, wow. That player is a real prize, man. Are there any mitigating circumstances, here, or is this just his smash-and-grab dungeoneering mindset sticking with him throughout the rest of the game?

 

[Hellefire]

Hm..mitigating circumstances. Well, I am running a few house rules. Mainly...it's a low magic world. Everything magical costs twice as much, unless you donate personal xp toward making it. The armor really was the best item they had seen drop. Beyond that, no. It's pretty much just a matter of greed. He actually already has mithral full plate +2. This isn't mithral, but is +5 and has a couple special powers. And he likes the price tag. Well, next game is tomorrow, we'll see how he acts, and I'll decide then. I have a couple more ideas from the posts here - thanks guys!!

Aaron

 

[Tinker]

Seems like this may be just too late, but I'll post anyway.

I don't think you should be too hard on him for having evil thoughts - it is really the player and maybe not the character. I think that is why DnD alignment is largely based on actions - you can't really tell where player thoughts end and chanracter ones begin. The only stuff that is definitively in character is declared actions.

I'd be pretty harsh on any cleric trying to change deities. See for example the rules under the Blackguard prestige class for ex-paladins. They lose a lot in the change over.