Clerics healing HP damage to subdual

[The Crimster]

It's been done in the Wheel of Time RPG, and I happen to like. I've never been a fan of clerics being able to heal someone from near-dead to perfect condition in 2.5 seconds, with no detrimental effect on the formerly wounded person. Healing HP damage to subdual seems like a great idea.

I'm thinking of making that change for an upcoming (not-WoT) campaign. In short, the campaign will be somewhat low-magic, dark and gritty - all the PC's will be thieves working for a guild (think Robert Asprin's Thieves World books). The players may take levels in other classes - but every third one must be a thief.

My question to my fellow DM's is this: Will I be gimping the cleric? Is there anything I should modify for the class to make up for the loss of true healing? Or will having this 'lesser' type of healing help me to maintain a dark and dangerous campaign feel?

The Crimster

 

[peterka1]

I don't really like subdual philosophy...

First, If a character has 100 hit points, 80 will be dodging capability and 20 real health points..

Most of the time, you should heal temp. points. in DND, real damage and damaged dodged are the same hit points.. ok, you're fatigued, but why is it not healed as subdual points ?

If you keep rules as it, just apply your healing to the 20sts or constitution level firsts points...

as a compensation, add :

1) +1 healing spell per spell level or
2) x2 healing restored

other ??? i'll think about it..

 

[twjensen]

OTOH

I don't really like subdual philosophy...

First, If a character has 100 hit points, 80 will be dodging capability and 20 real health points..

But without a cleric, even if the 80 hp are "dodging," by the rules, it would take many days to get back to tip-top form. If the cleric heals HP damage into subdual damage, you're back in the game the next day.

I wouldn't use it for an FR campaign, but if you're going for a different feel, I see no problem with it.

 

[The Crimster]

Well, the debate of how many inches of flesh equals 1 hit point is an age old one. I know that most of it is 'dodging' and 'luck' etc. - I embraced that theory of hit points long ago. But rather than get into that, I'm just looking for what you think the repercussions of that type of healing would be.

No, it won't be in the Forgotten Realms - most likely in a city of my own design.

The Crimster

 

[Epametheus]

Keep in mind that WoT is a much lower damage system than DnD.. In Wheel of Time, a skilled channeler can deal 6d6+12 or so, and a really good armsman can deal 2d6+8 or so.

In DnD, the wizard of level equal to that channeler would be dealing 12d6 (or instant death), and the fighter would probably do around 2d6+14 with higher hit chances.

Also, WoT healing has "casting times" -- thorough healing is not meant to occur on the battle field.

DnD healing is meant to be viable on a battle field, though, and conversion to subdual makes it substantially viable -- as it means people are more likely to finish a fight unconscious than they are to finish it standing.

It can probably work, though; I'm guessing this party isn't meant to do much fighting, and not being to recover from a skirmish immediately while definately discourage the party from engaging in battles, as a couple serious fights in one day would render most of the party comatose.

 

[Khaalis]

This is a very difficult concept to work with. First you have to decide what "healing" is in your game. D&D is very ambiguous on this topic. Currently the system is designed to be streamlined and easily managed - not to make any kind of logical "realistic" sense.

If 80% of your HP is fatigue, then why isn't there a system that says you take Subdual Damage until reduced to 20% of current max, then take real damage? This is much more realistic in that once reduced, you can rest and recuperate a few hours and be back to full fighting health if you did not take "physical wounds".

If you use the 80/20 rule-zero, then all wounds up to 80% are subdual with 20% being physical. You could then say that Magical healing converts physical wounds to subdual damage as presented in WoT and it would make perfect sense.

What I would do to balance this, is I would allow healing spells to be cast to remove subdual damage as well as physical damage but at a penalty. I would allow Cure spells to function as normal when converting Physical to Subdual (thus a Cure Light converts 1d8+1/Lv from Physical to Subdual). Then when spells are cast to reduce Subdual damage, you could allow the Cure spells to reduce the minutes of downtime to recuperate equal to say the number of points of healing x5 (using 5 minute increments).

Example: A PC is wounded in physical damage. A 5th level Cleric casts 1 Cure Light to convert into Subdual damage (average 9hp of healing). Now say it is going to take the "wounded" PC 2 hours to "heal" the subdual damage. The cleric could then cast another Cure Light to reduce the healing time by 45 minutes from 2 hours to 1.25 hours (assuming average 9 on the Cure Light).

Just an idea. This brings in a more realistic look at HP as well as making it lower on the magic level of healing more like the grittiness of Shadowrun.

EXAMPLE:

20th Level Fighter with 200hp:
-----------------------------
Base D&D (100%) = 200hp

Real Damage (20%) = 40hp
Fatigue Damage (80%) = 160hp



Damaged to 10hp Remaining:
-------------------------
Base D&D (100%) = 190hp Damage

Real Damage (20%) = 30hp Damage
Fatigue Damage (80%) = 160hp Damage



Natural Heal Time to Full:
-------------------------
(Real = Lv in HP per Night (20) / Subdual = Lv in HP per Hour (20))

Base D&D (100%) = 10 DAYS (190 points / 20hp per day)

Real Damage (20%) = 2 Days (30 points / 20hp per day)
Fatigue Damage (80%) = 8 hours (160 points / 20hp per hour)
(Total 3 Days)



Magical Healing to Full (Assume Lv 20 Cleric as well):
-----------------------
Base D&D (100%) = 190 points healed by Heal + Cure Light = 6 Seconds

Conversion Only:
Real Damage (20%) = 30 points converted to Subdual Damage = Cure Serious = 3 Seconds
Fatigue Damage (80%) = 190 points / 20hp per hour = 9.5 Hours

Full Heal:
Real Damage (20%) = 30 points converted to Subdual Damage = Cure Serious = 3 Seconds
Fatigue Damage (80%) = 9.5 Hours reduced by Heal = (186 points x5 minutes = -930 minutes or -15.5 hours) = 3 Seconds


(I forget the LV Cap on Cure spells but I think I am close for the Cure Serious.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If it is a low magic campaign, it might actually work. (If you don`t throw any 20d6 points of damage energetic spells at your characters), if not, it will become very dangerous. Not that it is bad...
You should give your partymembers enough options to avoid combat. Perhaps even the combatants will tend to avoid "normal" attack and prepare disarming, triping and so on.
You might change the healing rules for subdual damage (what are the current rules?)
What I wouldn`t to is to make some complex formulas, be they realistic or not.

 

[The Crimster]

Well theoretically, the players will and *should* avoid combat. It will be something to fear - they are thieves after all. They should be in and out with loot in hand.

 

[Crothian]

So, real damage is healed and it becomes subdual damage. THen the subdual damage has to healed as normal which is character level per hour.

Problems you'll run into. When a character drops from being reduced to under zero HP, you're healing will not make them conscience. If I have 15 hp and take 20 damage. Then the cleric turns all that to subdual damage, you're still unconscience.

My suggestion would be a combination of the two. THe cure spells are all xd8+cleric level (with a certain max). I'd have the d8 be how much damage is converted to subdual damage, and the cleric level be how much real damage is healed.

THieves world campaigns ar emy favorite. Gritty, poor, everyone against you. I'm a big fan of the city of Sanctuary and I'm happy that people are still using it.

 

[Khaalis]

CORTHIAN>>
Problems you'll run into. When a character drops from being reduced to under zero HP, you're healing will not make them conscience. If I have 15 hp and take 20 damage. Then the cleric turns all that to subdual damage, you're still unconscience.

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Yes actually you would remain unconscious until you reached 0 Subdual hp. I think this is incredibly realistic. If you are lying in bed with your guts hanging out (the reality of Negative HP), even with healing you shouldnt be back up running around and swinging a sword 3 seconds (1 round) later.