Clerics healing HP damage to subdual

[Poltergeist]

[

The Crimster [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The magic system itself is simply a 'part' of D&D. Can you run a campaign with no magic? Surely, it happens all the time, and it can be very successful. Those games do not suffer for the lack of magic (not just healing!). Take a look at WoT - they heavily modified the magic (AND healing!) system - and there are hundreds of games being run, without a problem. You can even take out classes (a core concept if there ever was one!) and have it work (d20 Cthulhu, of course). So I think playing with these core concepts is not only possible – it’s happening! Do not fear change!

I would have to disagree with you here. Cthulu and WoT are different games, not Dungeons and Dragons and they are internally balanced to address the change in magic system. WoT has entirely different classes which to me appear universally less powerful than their D&D equivalents and per your post, Cthulu has no classes whatsoever.

Going to have to disagree with you here,too. Where does it say or imply this? If this were the case, there would be no rules that state you get back your level in hit points per day of bed rest! They would assume you have a portable cleric in your backpack to heal you when you are slightly wounded! I would also state that despite the lack of a true cleric (we'll not mention the Fat Guy) - your group has done well, even without true healing. There was a time when you didn't have wands of cure light wounds, remember. And I know that there are adventuring groups out there who do fine without a cleric. It just makes it harder, grittier, grimmer. =)

It never says that having weapons is a core concept, either, but it is clearly part of the expectation of the game. I believe that the game is designed with the idea that someone will be able to heal in mind which is why I am referring to it as a "core" concept. I would also have to disagree with you about the "pocket cleric"...any game that is in the least bit complete should address natural healing. In terms of the other campaign, we have survived without a cleric but have leveled at less than half the rate that the game design anticipates you leveling. (As I recall, the general concept is that a 1-20 campaign will take you approximately 18 months if played four hours weekly. We play 8-10 hours weekly and are at 8-9th level after a year.) As to it being "harder, grimmer, and grittier"...well, I imagine that there are some people who would find that appealing.

And this is a bad thing? 3E D&D levels come so fast, that you barely get used to your level before you gain another. Of course, this could be another thread entirely, so I’ll end it here.

Yes, I feel that further slowing leveling is a bad thing. But I agree that this could be another entire thread so will leave it there.

GM: "You have defeated the Grell, and are now back at home, nursing your wounds. It takes about a day of bed rest to be back at full fighting capacity, thanks to your cleric. That day passes uneventfully."

GM: "Unfortunately, your severely wounded party is unable to intervene on the assassination plot that was uncovered during the battle earlier in the day, so the duchess is killed."

I don't think a fighter can gain 10 levels in one month (HIS time). I think Rand from WoT has grown too far, too fast (it’s been a little over a year since he left Two Rivers). But I think this is part of the story – i.e., he’s Lews Therin reborn.

Actual "character time" to level depends entirely on how many encounters the DM includes without story "break time." Regardless of whether or not you have subdual damage conversion, leveling occurs quicker in "character time" when there are encounters/adventures back to back to back rather than "in the month that passes" etc.

Ok, now the image of a wounded comrade being helped from the scene of a battle - fleeing from the scene of a battle - is appealing. This campaign won't be about heroes. (although in my mind's eye, I can see the PC's becoming heroes, but that's something else). This is about trying to avoid fighting. Of course, violence will dog your heels like a homeless puppy. Grim? Oh yes. And just the feeling I want.

I would have to say in all honesty that this feeling of grimness appeals significantly less to me than it does to you.

A problem even when you play normal D&D – I can’t see this making it more of a problem anyways. This comes down to the DM making sure that people have equal time, and that if someone is knocked out (or whatever) it’s for a short duration. I hereby vow as a DM, I’ll do my best not to leave you bored. If this is so, you have my permission to read whenever you want. =)

I agree that this can be a problem even in normal D & D but maintain that the subdual damage conversion runs the risk of aggravating the problem and changing it from a minor annoyance to a regularly occuring and fun killing problem.

Our own society, despite the fact that we can fly to the moon, paralyze a person with electricity, and type on a glorified abacus, we cannot instantly heal a small scratch.

In our own society, flying to the moon, paralyzing a person with electricity, and the access to computer are the result of millions of hours of man power and uncountable amounts of money. Moon landing alone was the result of decades of work, experimental technologies, and amounts of money that would make Michael Jackson faint. However, when you consider the amount of money, years to decades required to build the equipment necessary to do these things, etc, and the fact that people now undergo open heart surgery and are released to home within 3 days and return to work within the week, I would say that we are much closer to instant healing than to instant moon landings.

Bah! You yourself should know it is always easier to harm than to heal.

I would have to disagree with this as well. We have internal healing systems, designed to regenerate our bodies in amazing ways. Harming, however, requires an act of will. Our bodies self healing processes occur whether we will them to or not.

And guess who would be the more popular person? The cleric. The ability to completely heal someone after 1 day of rest?? BY THE GODS! Let’s not even talk about the ability to cure disease!

Agreed. Clearly, in America, people are pleased to spend money on healthcare and hold healthcare providers in higher regard than say sports heroes and movie stars. And remember, that our medicine today is pretty darn "magical" even when compared with what we saw 10-15 years ago. (Sorry for the sarcasm but I could not resist! Working in healthcare I would have to unequivocally dispute the idea that people hold "healing" in high regard.)

Fights deadlier you say? Ahhh yes. Excellent. Come on – 3E is almost like playing Champions, but with swords. A group of 4th level adventures do not ever, ever, ever fear a group of goblins (unless the DM plays the goblins as tactical geniuses). In my mind, there should always be a sliver of fear. Especially in this type of campaign, where the players are not meant to take on a squadron of guards and win…!

I have one word for you: Bakemono. Seriously, though, combat can and has been deadly. Goblins can have class levels, making them equally deadly to players at any level. One of the appeals of third edition is that one should *not* be able to go "bah, goblins...who cares."

Fighters main focus is dealing damage. Making their damage subdual would take away more from them than my proposed change. Clerics can do SO much more than heal. They have armor. They have weapons. They can hold you, blind you, curse you… Need I go on? However I do agree with you on some small scale, and I am considering some modification for their relatively small (IMHO) loss.

I would have to disagree with you here. I think most players and game masters see healing as the clerics primary role and responsibility. I may be wrong about this, but I even remember reading numerous threads on this board that refer to clerics as "combat medics."


I apologize for replying point for point but I could not resist the bait. At any rate, I will now quietly back out of this thread as my intent was not to debate you but to raise points regarding the impact that the subdual conversion could have on the game that you may not have considered and may have a greater impact than what you had planned.

 

[The Crimster]

I apologize for replying point for point but I could not resist the bait. At any rate, I will now quietly back out of this thread as my intent was not to debate you but to raise points regarding the impact that the subdual conversion could have on the game that you may not have considered and may have a greater impact than what you had planned.

My entire purpose for putting this thread up was to encourage debate. I was not trying to state, "This is how *it is*, what do you think?" I want you (and other players, and other readers!) to be able to say, 'Hey, that's not right, here's why' - but you have to expect me to come back with my thoughts as well.

Regardless, your posts have made me reconsider some issues...!

The Crimster

 

[billking]

Both sides have points. Crimster is right that making characters stop bleeding while still needing to protect a character is a good dramatic element. Poltergeist is right that removing the capablity for quickly reviving characters to fighting status would slow down one aspect of the game (healing) while not slowing down other parts, putting characters at a disadvantage.

A question: Was Crimster allowing inflict spells to deal normal damage? That would be cheesy to hamper good clerics without some similar detrement to evil ones.

And if I was poltergeist I'd use my rules lawyering to end this. The PHB (Combat chapter, under subdual damage) clearly states that a Conjuration (Healing) spell also heals a like number of subdual damage. Thus, a cure light wounds, even modified by Crimster, would convert the damage to subdual then remove it.

Of course he'd quickly correct this by saying that that rule doesn't count, which I think would be a bad move. Instead, he (she?) should say that subdual damage is healed first, then the normal damage is converted. That would mean that two cure light wounds spells in a row would convert 1d8+L damage to subdual and outright heal another 1d8+L. It's a good comprimise between Poltergeist and Crimster if you ask me.

EDITED TO ADD THIS: Crimster, good foruming isn't about debate so much as comprimise. If people go on forums just to present their reasoning and rant their grievances without any intent to have the other forumers actually modify their own opinion, then this is all for naught. Of course, it's not about surrendering your own individual thought either. It's about finding the best solution through creative thinking and comprimise. It's the "debate" mentality that causes otherwise good forums to degenerate into situations where new posts and ideas are tossed aside in favor of pointlessly revisting arguments whose sides will never reach mutual agreement, creating thread after thread of truly mindless drivel.... wait, I'm debating! Crap. Can't even follow my own advice.