Moon-Lancer
First Post
hong said:
don't get me wrong but I always thought maxing out str for fighters and dex for rogues was a pretty big incentive. Maybe your games where different then the ones I played in *shrug*
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Clerics need a wis of 20.
- Thread starter phil500
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don't get me wrong but I always thought maxing out str for fighters and dex for rogues was a pretty big incentive. Maybe your games where different then the ones I played in *shrug*
DeusExMachina
First Post
I think the point is that it somehow always seems like a rogue maxing out dex is expected, but a maxing out int for a wizard or wis for a rogue feels somehow like powergaming...
Moon-Lancer said:
Some of the classes have a bit less MAD. Without knowing 100% for certain it looks like the strikers, as a whole, can get away with just 3 stats, though melee rangers will have a problem. The cleric and paladin sort of need 4 (con is marginal, but it helps), and have to dump reflex stats (int and dex) altogether. It definitely shows up as a problem in the array they were using for the KotS characters.
It will gradually fade as bonuses accumulate over higher levels, but the distinction is very apparent at low levels.
Ok so there were some STR based things I thought were wis based. Thanks for pointing that out.
As to wis vs reflex: it is nice that reflex is usually lower than AC and it makes the lower +attack ok. but my point wasnt that they couldnt hit very often, it was that they need a wis based attack to land for almost all of their effectiveness.
I still feel that since buffing (and sometimes healing) require hitting, having a low WIS is not an option.
I used to build my 3.5 clerics with rather low wis, and just buff myself to hell and swing a mace. I get the feeling that will no longer be a viable build in the cleric class. That is a just a hunch, and it remains to be seen how effectively a cleric will be able to multi himself into a striker or defender.
For now, I have to conclude that it looks like the battlecleric/battlebard builds that buffed/healed self/allies rather than landing spells on opponents have been pushed into the warlord class.
As to wis vs reflex: it is nice that reflex is usually lower than AC and it makes the lower +attack ok. but my point wasnt that they couldnt hit very often, it was that they need a wis based attack to land for almost all of their effectiveness.
I still feel that since buffing (and sometimes healing) require hitting, having a low WIS is not an option.
I used to build my 3.5 clerics with rather low wis, and just buff myself to hell and swing a mace. I get the feeling that will no longer be a viable build in the cleric class. That is a just a hunch, and it remains to be seen how effectively a cleric will be able to multi himself into a striker or defender.
For now, I have to conclude that it looks like the battlecleric/battlebard builds that buffed/healed self/allies rather than landing spells on opponents have been pushed into the warlord class.
Ulthwithian
First Post
Ginnel: Since the Holy Symbol is an Implement, just as much as a Wand, Staff, or Orb is, it's a 90% probability that you will see +X Holy Symbols in 4E. The concern is where you'll find them, of course.
Phil: While I see how you could make a 3.X Cleric with rather low Wisdom, I never did. You are correct that in 4E this won't really work, but this IME is a good thing. We get to move away from the 'everyone in melee has a high Strength' paradigm (that is, attributes contributed to parts of play) towards a class-based attribute system (i.e., attributes contribute to a class). This is a side effect to moving everyone to a power-based system (as the Wizard already was in 3.X).
Phil: While I see how you could make a 3.X Cleric with rather low Wisdom, I never did. You are correct that in 4E this won't really work, but this IME is a good thing. We get to move away from the 'everyone in melee has a high Strength' paradigm (that is, attributes contributed to parts of play) towards a class-based attribute system (i.e., attributes contribute to a class). This is a side effect to moving everyone to a power-based system (as the Wizard already was in 3.X).
Case for Elven Clerics?
Maybe this will make the case for Elven Clerics.
Minor Points:
1. Speed and Shiftiness let them get to safe positions easier.
2. A high wis + elf's perception gives pretty much makes you the party's 'spot guy'
Major Points
3. The wisdom bonus makes hitting easier.
4. The elven reroll power is really useful if that vital healing of another PC depends on you hitting.
Seems elves would be the ideal cleric, unless there are some really useful feats for humans or really useful off-class powers for half-elves.
Maybe this will make the case for Elven Clerics.
Minor Points:
1. Speed and Shiftiness let them get to safe positions easier.
2. A high wis + elf's perception gives pretty much makes you the party's 'spot guy'
Major Points
3. The wisdom bonus makes hitting easier.
4. The elven reroll power is really useful if that vital healing of another PC depends on you hitting.
Seems elves would be the ideal cleric, unless there are some really useful feats for humans or really useful off-class powers for half-elves.
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Xorn
First Post
It's a lot easier to get Combat Advantage than 20 Wisdom.
Best played cleric I've seen worked in tandem with the Paladin every single fight. They were always flanking their target--and the cleric was just a vending machine of bonuses. Usually he was giving +1 to both of their ACs. Which was great because if the flanked decided to attack the cleric? +1 AC, -2 hit, 6 radiant damage.
Or you can blow 80% of your points on a 20, I guess.
Best played cleric I've seen worked in tandem with the Paladin every single fight. They were always flanking their target--and the cleric was just a vending machine of bonuses. Usually he was giving +1 to both of their ACs. Which was great because if the flanked decided to attack the cleric? +1 AC, -2 hit, 6 radiant damage.
Or you can blow 80% of your points on a 20, I guess.
Note that you don't need a high wisdom to learn high level spells prayers anymore.
More over, as secondaries abilities scores can have a big influence on some powers, it might sometimes be worst having a secondary higher than the primary ability.
For exemple, the tiefling warlord has 18 int and "only' 16 str.
His base attack might not be as high as some other characters, but with this he can maximise several abilities and powers (such as leading the attack giving +5 (1 + int) to hit against a solo monster for the whole encounter if he hits)
If you are playing a melee cleric, with some cleric powers (even some at will) utsing str to attack, you could easily have a cleric of a god of war with 16 or 18 in str and only 12 or 14 in wisdom.
More over, as secondaries abilities scores can have a big influence on some powers, it might sometimes be worst having a secondary higher than the primary ability.
For exemple, the tiefling warlord has 18 int and "only' 16 str.
His base attack might not be as high as some other characters, but with this he can maximise several abilities and powers (such as leading the attack giving +5 (1 + int) to hit against a solo monster for the whole encounter if he hits)
If you are playing a melee cleric, with some cleric powers (even some at will) utsing str to attack, you could easily have a cleric of a god of war with 16 or 18 in str and only 12 or 14 in wisdom.
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