Clerics who don't fight

[Deadguy]

Okay, I appreciate that this point has been debated before at some length, but since my memory is so poor, I wanted to ask the great and good of ENWorld for advice.

Basically I want to create a clear divide between two types of Cleric. One, the Militant, will still be essentially the Cleric of the PHB. The other I want to be a Divine Mage (I'm calling him a Philosopher). As such, he's not going to have more than proficiency in Simple weapons and no Armour proficiencies at all, and he'll have the Wizard/Sorcerer BAB progression. Given that I am taking away quite a bit, what do I need to give back in return?

One idea I had was to use the Sorcerer Spells Per Day chart, adding the '+1 Domain Spell' per level also, and sliding it down so the progression becomes 1/3/5/... for 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells (i.e. the same as a standard full caster progression).

Another was to allow the Philosopher spontaneous casting a la the Bard and Sorcerer, i.e. no preparation in advance.

Would these two abilities suffice to make the Cleric Philosopher balanced with the Cleric Militant? Or is more required?

And of course, if anyone can come up with ideas for other balancing measures or a whole different way o handling things, well I'd really like to hear them. And, of course, if anyone has links to sites where similar ideas are tred out, well that would be really handy!

 

[Thresher]

Actually, the new Dragonlance, love or hate the setting has a spontaneous divine caster called the Mystic which in my opinion is one of the best new base classes Ive seen put together for quite awile.
Now, I figure if you wanted to transpose one into a contempory setting you'd give them a diety to venerate and they'd click in ok.

From memory, my book is at work at the moment-
Same spell progression as a sorc but use wisdom instead of charisma, BAB, saves where the same as a cleric they get only one domain for bonus spells. Also they get medium armour and simple weapons and only can turn if they take the sun domain, oh yeah, the token 2 skill points a level.

Worth a thought if your wanting to try something new.

 

[Phaedrus]

Take a look at the Evangelist in Dragon 311.
Spells known like the Sorcerer plus spells from 2 domain lists at 1st (with the associated domain powers, too). At 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level gain the spell list from an additional domain (but not its ability).

Spells/day just like the Sorcerer.

No spontaneous cure casting, no turning ability. Everything else the same (roughly).

I like it!

 

[Nifft]

IMC, clerics get:
- Prepared spells per Core cleric;
- Simple weapons, Light armor & Shields;
- 1 Domain;
- Spontaneous conversion to Domain spells only;
- and they can take extra Domains as Feats.

If they want Medium or Heavy armor, they can take a level of Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or even Ranger. If they want more casting flexibility, they can take more Domains as Feats.

Of course, I had to change all the Domains to remove the powerful Wizard spells, but 3.5e helped in that regard -- the Cleric spell list makes a lot more sense now.

-- N

PS: Here's my Domain List

 

[Saeviomagy]

Okay, I appreciate that this point has been debated before at some length, but since my memory is so poor, I wanted to ask the great and good of ENWorld for advice.

Basically I want to create a clear divide between two types of Cleric. One, the Militant, will still be essentially the Cleric of the PHB. The other I want to be a Divine Mage (I'm calling him a Philosopher). As such, he's not going to have more than proficiency in Simple weapons and no Armour proficiencies at all, and he'll have the Wizard/Sorcerer BAB progression. Given that I am taking away quite a bit, what do I need to give back in return?

Frankly? Almost nothing. I honestly don't think that this is any different to (say) having a cleric with a bad strength stat (who is therefore unable to carry and wear armour, or hit in combat).

Perhaps give them a feat every 4 levels and a bonus one at first.

 

[Deadguy]

Frankly? Almost nothing. I honestly don't think that this is any different to (say) having a cleric with a bad strength stat (who is therefore unable to carry and wear armour, or hit in combat).

Perhaps give them a feat every 4 levels and a bonus one at first.

Wow! That's not an answer I expected (which is always a good thing). But I think I disagree with your thesis. A Cleric with low strength can raise it through magic, and can make use of tools that are appropriate to that character build. He will still have access to the same BAB chart, and can become nigh as effective as a High-strength Cleric. So I don't think the comparison is exact.

That said, I can more generally see the point that I must resist the temptation to give them too much instead - at the end of the day I don't want to end up with Sorcerers with Holy Symbols!


Thanks for heads-up on Dragonlance, Thresher, I will take a peak when I am next at my FLGS. And while I am there I will look out for Dragon 311, Phaedrus, as the Evangelist may be what I am looking for.

Finally, thanks too Nifft, for the link - very handy!

 

[bensei]

Volume IV (free PDF download) of the Umbragia Setting has the Priest, which is a divine caster with Sor BAB and saves, but with more spells (spontaneous casting). The exact weapon and armor proficiency as well as some other special abilities depend on the particular religion.
Priests of a martial religion are better at using weapons and shields (and have access to war-spells), while priests of an influencial religion have view weapons and sometimes even no armor proficiencies, but on the contrary other interesting abilities.

 

[hong]

There are stacks of alt.clerics around. Mine is here:

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/priest.htm

 

[gpetruc]

If you don't want a spontaneous divine spellcaster, I'd suggest giving:
- more skills/skill points: Knowledge, NPC interaction, ...
- maybe more domains ? (but the same number of spells per day, probably)
- some sort of protection: monk's level-based AC, or something like a Sanctuary effect while not fighting (otherwise they usually loose a lot of AC), or some leve-based DR (bypassed by opposite allineament)

I'd keep:
- spontaneous healing (it's so good for out-of-character issues like not having to decide how many healing spells to prepare)
- d8 HD: you want him to provide healing, not to need to be healed by others

 

[Storminator]

I would just allow spontaneous casting of domain spells. It's a great power, it fits in well with the character concept, and it's extremely simple to implement.

For what it's worth, I think the evangelist is a little too strong. I have a player that just started using one, and I toned down the spells known progression, and limited the domain powers severely. I like the style, but there was just a little too much good stuff in there.

PS