Clerics without gods = huh?!

[Ashrem Bayle]

I've really been stumbling over this one lately. The Player's handbook states that a cleric does not need a particular god to sponsor him.

This leads me to believe that the cleric in turn represents a philosophy, creed, or religion based on the two domains he chooses.

Ok.

So where does he get his powers? Who, or what, grants him his spells.

Why would a godless cleric of Fire and Air be able to turn or rebuke undead? What about a cleric of Animal and Plant? Celerity? How can you worship speed? (Not the drug. )

Maybe I missed something, but this doesn't make a lot of sense. It looks to me like, in there attempt to make the cleric kewl, they lost sight of any focus.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

 

[Mouseferatu]

My take on such characters has always been that nobody "grants" their spells. Rather, it's the strength of their faith itself that allows them to work miracles. After all, arcane casters and psionicists don't need an outside being to give them their spells, no reason clerics should have to have such things.

Now that said, I prefer, in my campaign worlds, clerics who do worship specific deities, and usually require it. But that's just personal preference.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Why would a godless cleric of Fire and Air be able to turn or rebuke undead? What about a cleric of Animal and Plant? Celerity? How can you worship speed? (Not the drug. )

Their force of will allows them to tap into the postive/negative plane of energy, and then the tenets of their beliefs determine what they can do with that energy.

As for undead- it is a useful side-effect from dealing with positive energy.

SD

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

My take on such characters has always been that nobody "grants" their spells. Rather, it's the strength of their faith itself that allows them to work miracles.

My DM allows clerics to worship strong ideas, mainly things like alignment.

Right now the cleric i'm playing is a cleric of good, he worships no god. We never really spelled it out to much, but i get the idea that he treats it as my charcter basically drawing power from all good aligned dieties with out them actively granting it. In one instance i got a very strange reaction from one of the gods in a commune type situation. I was givin the idea that what iwas doing was not well recieved, but that he could not fault my intentions.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Hmm.. Some pretty good responses here.

That said, there are still some problems.

If you go with "their strength of faith grants miracles", how can you have faith in Strength, Celerity, etc?

Turning undead as a side effect is an interesting idea.

I would have really liked to have seen the cleric as a more "modular" class.

Base cleric:
1d6 Hit Dice
Same BAB
Good Will Saves
Spells
2 Domains
Basic Class Skills

The domains would have been more defining. They would determine what spells, class skills, and special abilities you have.

Turning undead could be a special ability of a few domains.

Other domains might have different effects such as, rebuking undead, shapeshifting into an animal, limited fire control, limited air control, gaining a fighter's BAB for a few rounds, etc.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I never really liked the idea of godless clerics. It just doesn't jive well with me. That said, I could definitely see the demons in my campaign giving powers to people who think they're worshipping "Good." I'll have to think about that.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

If you go with "their strength of faith grants miracles", how can you have faith in Strength, Celerity, etc?

Obviosly some ideals are harder to deal with then others. I'd say it's something that you really need to deal with on a case by case basis.

For Strength your character might be trying for physical perfection through spiritualism, similar to a monk but focusing on physical strength. This could also be very appropriate to some humaniod races that work on a might makes right system of leadership. Also an evil cleric that worships the ideal of strength might go about try to oppres any one weaker then himself.

 

[HellHound]

One of the reasons I came back to D&D was the godless clerics.

Belief and faith are INCREDIBLY potent powers to me. I can't imagine that somebody can change the world through arcane ritual or through powers of the mind, but not through faith and belief.

As for believing in Strength. Think of someone who believes that might makes right, that being physically more powerful makes you more powerful in all ways. Strength is all important for this character, and his belief in strength is a fount of great power.

Other ideas along these lines are people who take the Oki-Pa sundance ceremony to find their personal spiritual path and power. These are tests of endurance and strength, and can be intense spiritual quests.

 

[Zappo]

I reason that all the gods connected with the concept the cleric worships are granting him spells. In a sense, all gods of Fire gain a little from the belief of a Fire cleric - so, each of them gives him a fraction of power.

 

[Desdichado]

It looks to me like, in there attempt to make the cleric kewl, they lost sight of any focus.

I don't want to get caught up in the argument about god or no god for clerics, but I certainly agree with this point.