closed (Quadripartite)

[Feathercircle]

Hmmm....

I'd be a little leery of using Savage Species with 3.5... I've heard of people having all kinds of conversion issues with it.. mostly cases damage reduction, but other things as well... just because a species level was balanced against 3e classes doesn't mean its balanced with 3.5, after all...

Anyway, if you've still got a slot open, I have an interesting character who might be good in this campaign, if you'd allow it...
my misborn, psionics-less, chaotic neutral with good tendancies illithid bard Ikanthilossk. (LONG story....) I've only had one DM allow that character, and he was the one who was so hack and slashy and inept he constantly sent things with a CR 4 levels over our heads at us but we won anyway and leveled so fast I got whiplash and decided that forcing someone's character to be gay was an adequate compensation for playing an ECL race (without having them take Level Advancement costs)... So, kind of a bad experience with him.

I can find my character sheet and post it by this evening... I don't know how the Savage Species version works since I don't have the book, so I went straight monster manual when I originally created the character.. And Soldarin's ECL calculator pegged it at about 7.5 for 3rd Edition... so I'd come in with about 6 levels of Bard. But first I'd have to get a yea or nay from ye.

 

[tburdett]

A standard mind flayer (one with psionics) with NO class levels would be a 15th level character (8HD + 7LA).

You don't really give up much by taking away psionics. You still have improved grab, telepathy, mind blast, spell resistance, and extract. Not to mention the boatload of stat adjustments that you get to make. A really nice set of useful abilities.

The base starting point you'd use to determine your character level would be 8 (for the 8HD that the mind flayer has). From there the DM would have to determine how many levels your abilities would be worth (this would be the level adjustment, or LA).

The whole point of this is to show that there is no way that your character would start at 7.5.

 

[Feathercircle]

I didn't imply 7.5... I said it'd round up to 8. And I think you fail to understand just how 'nerfed' Ika is compared to a normal individual of its species... And none of that was chosen to lower ECL, though that's a nice side effect...

(Story of the character's creation, not the character itself...
I was browsing the Legacy of Zerthimon site with a certain DM, and found the illithid music section.. I commented that under 3e rules, he could create a mind flayer bard to send against us, and he commented that if I had a good enough back story, he'd let me PLAY an illithid bard... Once he gave up trying to get into my pants, he later backed out on that, but I had already risen to the challenge and constructed a strong backstory.. Ika's problems arose as an explanation for the obvious question of "Why would this illithid be adventuring with a bunch of humans instead of with other illithids?"

Soldarin's ECL calculator gives me
subtype: abberation hit dice: 8 (total ECL so far: 4)
extra attack suite
racial stat bonuses (admittedly gets slightly insane)
(total ECL thus far: 6.2)
1 major power- extraction (coincidentally, character background means it'll be unlikely to be used, but that's irrelevant to the ECL discussion)
(running ECL total 7.2)
1 minor power for provisional attack bonus for tentacles
(current ECL 7.4)
One medium spell like for Telepathy (treating as essentially a one-way Tounges spell usable at will)
(current ECL 7.9)
one minor weakness for light sensitivity, courtesy of the Illithiad
(final calculated ECL 7.7, rounded up to 8)

As a DM running 3rd edition, I've found Soldarin's calculator
here , to be the most balanced way of dealing with non-standard NPCs, but I admit I have no idea how it stacks up with anything in 3.5 or Savage Species since I have neither, although I can get 3.5 basics online.. and Assasination is perfectly within his grounds to reject the character concept if he so chooses.

The other characters I've got lying around are much harder to deal with, frankly. The half-orc aristocrat/fighter has a family curse which would require advance DM approval, and I'd much rather play him starting at a much lower level.. Ivory Raven, the sorcerer with anteriograde amnesia would require a LOT of advance DM approval and I would MUCH rather start him at a lower level since I'd otherwise be handing him approximately 10 levels of experience worth of my character's life that he (the character, not the DM) has no recollection of, and that could quickly become awkward. Veil, more than any character I have other than Ika goes along the lines of base rules, but as a githyanki cleric and a member of the Dustmen, he'd be difficult to manage in a campaign without at least some Planescape elements...

Anyway, since I'm now realizing how solidly a 3.0 person I am (until I get my hands on the actual non-SRD books and can make an informed decision to switch over or not), this entire discussion is largely an intellectual excercise on my behalf... So I guess I'm going to just watch this campaign. Avidly, since it involves the Far Realms, but only watching nonetheless.

Regardless, tburdett, you should probably sit back in the future and let the DM make his own decisions. It's not your response itself that rankled me, its that you answered a question that I'd essentially addressed to Assasination.

Anyway, I'm stressed about starting colllege on Tuesday, and may or may not be ranting by this point, so I should probably just shut up and let everyone else get on with the thread.

 

[tburdett]

Regardless, tburdett, you should probably sit back in the future and let the DM make his own decisions. It's not your response itself that rankled me, its that you answered a question that I'd essentially addressed to Assasination.

The tone of your reply suggests otherwise. You may recall that this is a public forum, and as such, posting and replying are allowed as long as one follows the rules. I would recommend using the private message function if you can't bear to have others reply to one of your messages.

I am not, in any way, ursurping the DM's ability to decide this issue for himself. I am merely giving an opinion that is in opposition to your own. You claimed that a mind flayer without 'psionics' should be a +0 LA creature. I disagree.

By the way, you don't have spell resistance or mindblast (at will, no less) factored into your calculations. Mindblast is an EXTREMELY powerful ability that can leave multiple opponents unable to act for several rounds. Isn't this worth anything? Is spell resistance worth anything? The evidence you presented, and the exclusion of these two abilities from your calculations really goes a long way to discredit your position.

Anyway, I'm stressed about starting colllege on Tuesday, and may or may not be ranting by this point, so I should probably just shut up and let everyone else get on with the thread.

That part of my life is far behind me, but I can remember some of the stress that was involved. If it helps, rant away, I have broad shoulders and thick skin.

 

[assassination]

i probly should have eddited this earler. but the final role call for the campain is as follows, if your name is not on this list then you mised out on the game and im sorry for the mix up.

1)Shaff = Monk
2)thels = ????
3)tburdett = fighter/prc, a barbarian/fighter/prc, or just a fighter.
4)jaik = Cleric or druid???
5)Velmont = ???
6)Casar couer = rouge ???

hit paoint is max at first, and 3/4 for the remenin levels.
thanks for the insite for the savage species, im herby telling everybody that savege species if out. if you mised that ill say it again.savage species will not be used in this game.

 

[Thels]

I changed my mind about LA races, they're mainly usefull for warriors and we got enough of those. Thinking about Mystic Theuge instead.

Do you allow Strongheart Halflings or the Spellcasting Prodigy Feat? Both can be found in the FRCS. (A No would be fine, just checking).

 

[Feathercircle]

I'm sorry, but I've never really understood quite what LA exactly the difference between LA and ECL are... the only rulebooks I own are the 3e DMG, PHB, PsiHB and both Monster Manuals... and the additional/alternate psionics rules in If Thoughts Could Kill. I don't exactly have much of a budget, so I don't have much of a book collection... I'm guessing Level Advancement rules, and the distiction between LA and Effective Character Level are found in something I don't have, probably either Savage Species or one of the Forgotten Realms books or both.

Additionally, I didn't factor either of those abilities in because the character in question DOESN"T HAVE THEM. I thought I'd made that clear in my last post, but I wasn't exactly at my most coherent at the time regardless... I apologized for that then, and I apologize for it again now. Moreover, I DO recognize just how powerful a mind blast can be, which is why for my own campaign, I've followed the advice that Bruce Cordell himself gave on Monte Cooke's messageboards and reduced the stun to 1d4... but that's irrelevant.

I was cranky and less coherent than usual at the time of my last post, and I apologize for that. However, your tone, and the fact that you seem to have not bothered to read my entire post, are making me irritable once again, although I'm trying to not let that hinder me as much as it did before.

Re-read the third-to-last paragraph I posted. You seem to have skipped over it in constructing your reply.
Your entire post was essentially unneccessary, because of one simple fact:
I'm not planning on playing in this campaign.

I realized while I was constructing my previous post that I'm in no mood and no position to join a campaign using 3.5 rules before I have a chance to peruse them at my leisure.
The premise of this campaign, which is what lured me to finally crawl out of my lurkerdom and post, is still intruiging enough for me to follow it on this messageboard, but as I said in my last post and again here, I'm going to be sitting this one out. I wish you luck there, as well as all the other players, and I hope you'll be more attentive to them than you were to me...
I apologize if I"m coming off as hostile, but it's largely in reaction to the antagonism I'm percieving from you. I'm not always good at interpreting emotion over the internet, so if you weren't intending to be condescending and hostile to me, I sincerely apologize for my misinterpretation. Either way, since I"m not playing, I'd appreciate it if everyone chooses not to respond to this post, and gets on with the thread and the campain.

As a conclusion to this post, I'd like to say that I hope this campaign goes well for everyone involved, players and DM alike. Enjoy the horrific Far Realms goodness of it all! (At least, for as long as you're sane enough to do so! )

 

[Thels]

There's 2 things that relate to the ECL of a character:

- Starting Hit Dice. Any hit dice you get for your race count just like class levels. They add to your Character Level, thereby increasing your skillpoints, base attack bonus, saving throws, feats every 3 levels and ability score every 4 levels. Your 1st level is actually the 1st HD as the monster, so you get 4x the number of skill points at your 1st monster HD, not at your 1st class level. Likewise, you don't automatically get a feat at your 1st class level.

- Level Adjustment. This is a counterweight for the special abilities from the race beyond those related to it's hit dice, including ability modifiers. If you add the Level Adjustment to the Character Level, you get the Effective Character Level.

Both Starting Hit Dice and Level Adjustment cost levels, and therefor experience. If you're allowed to make a 14th level character, you subtract the Level Adjustment and the Monster Hit Dice and then you know how much levels are remaining.

The Effective Character Level is Level Adjustmust + Starting Hit Dice for those that actually have Starting Hit Dice or Level Adjustment + 1 for those that have no Starting Hit Dice. When you create a character, you can only make characters with an ECL equal to or less than the level you're allowed you make.

For example, the Mind Flayer (according to the 3.5 Monster Manual) has 8 Starting Hit Dice and a Level Adjustment of +7. Say you want to be a Mind Flayer Bard. With 1 level in Bard, that would be:

7 (Level Adjustment) + 8 (Starting Hit Dice) + 1 (Class) = ECL 16. So you need to be allowed to make a 16th level character to do that.

Since the Mind Flayer has Starting Hit Dice, you might want to check up with your DM if you could play one that starts without Class Levels (for an ECL of 15). In most cases, this would be possible. This would never be possible for races that have no Starting Hit Dice.

The Character Level would be:

8 (Starting Hit Dice) + 1 (Class) = CL 9.

You could also count like:

ECL 16 - LA 7 = CL 9.

You have 9 CL, so you get 4 feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th) and 2 ability bonuses (4th, 8th).

You have 8 HD as a Mind Flayer, but since 1st level counts 4 times, you get 11 skill levels for Mind Flayer (2 + Int Bonus/level) and 1 for Bard (6 + Int bonus/level). You do not get 4x the skillpoints for bard, since you already got the x4 for the Mind Flater. Likewise, the 1st HD for Mind Flayer is maxed, while you roll the 1st HD for Bard as normal.

Finally, you may add the BaB of +6 and the Saves of Fort +2, Red +2, Will +2 to your scores as a bard. These get the threaddownads like normal, so the +6 allows an additional +1,

Hope that clarifies.

 

[tburdett]

Feathercircle,

I know you did not want a reply to your message, but, life is full of disappointment!

I would hate for you to leave the conversation thinking that I feel any hostility towards you. I do not. If I came across that way, I apologize.

Assassination,

Work progresses slowly on my Dwarven tank. I will try to finish him off before I leave work. Are you familiar with the master samurai and weapon master prestige classes? Those are two that I am considering. Please let me know if you have a problem with either of these classes. Thanks.

 

[assassination]

first off, Feathercircle i was just posting saying who was in the campain and who missed the triouts. for the people that looking in this post it is closed and the character generation is now being done.

those classes from the FRHB ill have to look over. it's late at night and i really don't have the modivation yet to look for them, ill have a respons for you tomorrow.

tburdett, i have hurd about those class but never really seen them, can you tell me what book they are in and then i can look for them and give you a thumbs up or down with that.