Cloverfield - The Immortal's Handbook 4E to 3.5 Conversion

[Belzamus]

Seems more reasonable to go for 50, especially given how you've described him upthread. I don't really see why he SHOULD be any higher (keeping in mind I haven't seen the movie.)

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Seems more reasonable to go for 50, especially given how you've described him upthread. I don't really see why he SHOULD be any higher (keeping in mind I haven't seen the movie.)

Most certainly, there's nothing in the movie suggesting he's CR <50.

Is 3900 hp OK for that CR?

 

[Belzamus]

Is 3900 hp OK for that CR?

I'd say so. Most of my abominations only have around 3-4,000 hp and they're CR 70+, but they have better defenses that Cloverfield here.

Off the top of my head, a 50th level fighter has a...let's see, roughly +100 to hit, give or take (assuming 50 STR and a +20 weapon).

So, on a Dire Charge, with Uncanny Power Attack and Leap Attack, he gets a full attack at +100/+95/90/85 Power Attacking at a 6:1 ratio (let's assume a greatsword).

Now, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to have an approriately dense weapon, so his base damage, at a guess, could be something like: 6d6 +60 15-20/x4.

Now, with Clover's horrendous AC, he's getting a full PA in on almost every hit, which translates to a +300 damage on each hit, bringing us up to 6d6 +360 damage.

Now, one of those attacks is likely to be a critical, which hits for 24d6 +1,200.

Leaving 3 attacks at 6d6+300.

Therefore, on average, our fighter deals Clover a rough average of 2,400 damage per round.

Now, to be fair, that is optimized a bit. (I call it focused) However, it could go a lot higher very easily. And the build is fairly obvious when you have feats to burn. There's only so many epic fighter feats of use, why WOULDN'T they take the Power Attack and Critical line? So I assmume this is a fairly stereotypical build for this level.

So...Clover lives through the first round most likely, but the fighter's buddies are likely to finish it off before it gets a turn.

If we could just get his AC to like 70 or so, I think Clover would be in pretty good shape. (Of course, a caster would likely tear it apart in one round easily, that's just a failing of this type of monster, really. Not much you can do about it while it's still "Cloverfield". If it can't stand up to a typical 50th level party without giving it abilites that don't mesh with it's flavor...maybe we should bump it down until it comes out even.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Its an intriuing dynamic wherein AC is actually more useful than Damage Reduction due to the Multiplication aspects of Power Attack.

In fact I wonder if maybe (as a House Rule) if adding Damage Reduction as an AC bonus might solve the problem?

Or better yet, play 4E!

 

[Belzamus]

I still postulate that DR should go up way higher at immortal levels. I mean, maybe it makes sense for Clover to have 50, but think of a Greater God. He's likely to take upwards of 500 damage a hit in melee, yet has a DR of 40. I don't see why 200 would be out of place, nor for Fast Healing/Regeneration. At least make it relevant to the fight. It's a nonability at that level. DR 40 is decent at level 20. 400 wouldn't really be out of place for a resilient Greater God, I don't think. And then allowing it to be multiplied by Sidereal/Eternal HP modifiers would help it keep up there as well. (An Old One, for example, would have DR 4,800/--.) Sounds closer to me.

None of that really helps Clover, though. That Touch AC makes me laugh every time I look at it. Luckily, though, this is before Unearthly Weapon Focus, so it isn't that big a deal. Once Cosmics come into play, normal bonuses to AC (Armor, Shield, Natural) are nearly useless. I guess that's what all the Cosmic defensive abilities are for. Too bad Clover can't have any. Nebulous and Numinous would do him wonders.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

If we could just get his AC to like 70 or so, I think Clover would be in pretty good shape.

Maybe we should raise both its Dex and natural armor, then.

(Of course, a caster would likely tear it apart in one round easily, that's just a failing of this type of monster, really. Not much you can do about it while it's still "Cloverfield". If it can't stand up to a typical 50th level party without giving it abilites that don't mesh with it's flavor...maybe we should bump it down until it comes out even.)

If it's an Aberration, we can give it SR. SR 62 (12 + CR) sound good?

 

[Belzamus]

Maybe we should raise both its Dex and natural armor, then.

My only concern is whether it's justified or not based on the movie.

If it's an Aberration, we can give it SR. SR 62 (12 + CR) sound good?

Well, that's not the formula the IH typically uses, but it might be better in this instance, as 10+HD is obnoxiously high for his CR.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Belzamus dude!

I still postulate that DR should go up way higher at immortal levels. I mean, maybe it makes sense for Clover to have 50, but think of a Greater God. He's likely to take upwards of 500 damage a hit in melee, yet has a DR of 40. I don't see why 200 would be out of place, nor for Fast Healing/Regeneration. At least make it relevant to the fight. It's a nonability at that level. DR 40 is decent at level 20. 400 wouldn't really be out of place for a resilient Greater God, I don't think. And then allowing it to be multiplied by Sidereal/Eternal HP modifiers would help it keep up there as well. (An Old One, for example, would have DR 4,800/--.) Sounds closer to me.

I don't think that will actually help the problem, simply paper over a crack and create a new problem in the process.

I mean if you allow some sort of DR multipliers, then the PCs, NPCs and monsters without Power Attack Multiplication totally get the shaft. Which means you probably need to instigate both as standard, which then cancels each other out defeating the point of having them in the first place.

 

[Belzamus]

Hey Belzamus dude!



I don't think that will actually help the problem, simply paper over a crack and create a new problem in the process.

I mean if you allow some sort of DR multipliers, then the PCs, NPCs and monsters without Power Attack Multiplication totally get the shaft. Which means you probably need to instigate both as standard, which then cancels each other out defeating the point of having them in the first place.

Hey, U_K.

I'd argue that anyone who can't overcome that kind of DR has no business calling themselves a warrior of any kind.

A First One would have DR 9,600 in this case.

The absolute high end for PA is with a scythe, Ultimate Power Attack, Perfect Critical/Multiplier, UnearthlyWeapon Spec, and Leap Attack.

That gives a ratio of 256:1 on a charge, with a 16-20/x16.

Now let's give him the Double War Portfolio, which puts his BaB at +480. Attack rapidly outpaces Ac at this point, so let's assume he can use it all.

That gives us +122,880 damage a hit, with a 25% chance for +1,966,080.

Now, that is ABSURD. But it blows through DR 9,600 like it's not even there.

I really question the competency of a Sidereal wishing to engage in melee if they CAN'T do more than 10,000 damage a hit. Why bother anyway? Your opponent has 1/2 a million hp to begin with, little peasly 1,000 damage hits won't register anyway.

Now, on a lower tier, it does break down. Maybe it's not even needed there. But seriously, DR 120/-- on a First One is pitiful. It might as well not even be there. 120 points of damage is meaningless at that point.

Say, absurdly, you're 3WF with Ultimate Weapon Spec and have 200 attacks per round at 200 damage. 40,000 if they all connect. Whoo-hoo! Not even one hit of a the average two-hander.

No, either a multi-hit specialist finds a way of ignoring DR or they get their damage high enough to count in the first place.

And generalists...well, I guess they learn there lesson. If their spells are too weak to be of use because of their dilletanted-ness, their attacks should be too.

And...that's all very off-topic. Sorry.

 

[Kerrick]

I was bored and thought I'd pop in.

In the MM, a Killer Whale is CR5, Brown and Polar Bears and Tigers are all CR4. Tyrannosaurus is CR8, so I'd say that (going by the official animal stats) CR10 ought to be the absolute max for any natural our-Earth creature.

Only problem is, the CRs in the MM are wrong. Going by UK's CRs, a T Rex is CR 13. In point of fact, a blue whale is a hell of a lot bigger (just over 100 feet long and up to 190 tons, according to Wikipedia) - firmly in the Colossal bracket. If you want to go with dinosaurs, there are a few that are proposed (I say that because they're working off incomplete skeletons) to be even bigger.

A creature's HD shouldn't go up with size quite that easily. That's the equivalent of an increase in HD proportional to the increase in linear dimension (both double each size category). The MM/SRD porpoise is 4 to 6 feet long and has 2 HD. A whale 100 feet long, x20 times longer, shouldn't really have 40 HD - realistically, the biggest whales probably shouldn't have more than 15 HD, probably less; they really were fairly easy to kill. A 40 HD whale would make whaling nearly impossible.

I agree. Going by this system I adapted from v5 (which, IIRC, I posted here and everyone pooh-poohed), a blue whale would have around 25 HD.

a Colossal lion = 26-27 HD
a Gargantuan rhinoceros = 24-25 HD
a Colossal rhinoceros = 42-43 HD
a Gargantuan elephant = 19-20 HD
a Colossal elephant = 33-34 HD
a Titanic elephant = 58-59 HD
a Macro-Diminutive brown bear = 172-173 HD

...which all sound reasonable.

All except the bear - I'd put it around 130 HD (guesstimating, since I didn't extend the tables to Macro-Dim).