Cohort Familiars... Revisited

[Pbartender]

Like many topics on these boards, it comes up every now again... A player who wants to combine a familiar with his cohort.

Well, one of mine does, and I think I have a reasonable way to do it. I did, of course, want a few second opinions before I gave him the go ahead, and that's where you all come in.

On page 200 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, it gives a suggestion for Paladins who want to use their special mounts as a Cohort for the Leadership feat. To paraphrase... Go ahead and do it if your DM says it's ok, but the special abilities of the paladin's mount (empathy, share spells, improved evasion, increased armor, etc.) should give the creature an extra +2 ECL at least.

I thought this might be a good rule of thumb for Familiars (and perhaps druid/ranger animal comanions) also.

So, for example, a character who wanted a pseudodragon cohort/familiar, would have to take both the Improved Familiar and the Leadership feats (that's a lot of feats for a wizard or sorcerer, when you think about it). The pseudodragon would have a +7 ECL (between it's level adjustment, it's hit dice and the extra ECL from being a familiar), meaning the wizard couldn't get him until 9th level. But the familiar could feasibly (and slowly) gain character levels later on.

What do you think?

1. Is this a reasonable solution?
2. If you think so, is +2 ECL a reasonable penalty?

 

[oromancer]

That sounds very reasonable to me. You might even want to let him hold his 6th level feat until 7th & take Improved Familiar (just to have him a bit earlier), then he can take Leadership at 9th & immediately make his familiar his cohort.

 

[Darklone]

Just one question for the dumb: Why does he want to do that? To let the familiar gain character levels?

 

[oromancer]

Yes, I'd assume that would be the only benefit. Are we on track here, Pbartender?

 

[Pbartender]

Just one question for the dumb: Why does he want to do that? To let the familiar gain character levels?

To put it very, very simply... Yes.

But there is also a little more behind it than that. He's really looking (both rule-wise and roleplaying-wise) for a familiar who's a more of a useful sidekick, and less of a glorified skill boosting magic item that must be constantly protected and/or ignored.

I honestly can't blame him.

 

[Silveras]

In general, most things that can be familiars don't advance by character class, so it seems a losing proposition to try to combine the two, to me. Now, if you just want a tougher familiar, fine. But a familiar that will gain levels ? Uhm... that sounds broken, to me.

 

[LeifVignirsson]

In general, most things that can be familiars don't advance by character class, so it seems a losing proposition to try to combine the two, to me. Now, if you just want a tougher familiar, fine. But a familiar that will gain levels ? Uhm... that sounds broken, to me.

Actually, in Mongoose Publishing's Familiars books, they do talk about imbuing your familiar with charcter levels, up to 9 levels worth, as if they were adventurers themselves. And with the wide array of familiars they had on tap (from penguins to vampires and everything inbetween), it was a virutal plethora of choices. As far as the original question, I think taking a peak into that book might help the boy-o out. He can hold off on summoning a familiar at 1st level and do a summons at, say, 6th level and have a choice of a 6 HD creature/humanoid that may already have pre-existing levels... Just a thought

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

To put it very, very simply... Yes.

But there is also a little more behind it than that. He's really looking (both rule-wise and roleplaying-wise) for a familiar who's a more of a useful sidekick, and less of a glorified skill boosting magic item that must be constantly protected and/or ignored.

I honestly can't blame him.

Yeah, but it would be kind of odd if a cohort familiar ends up being more potent than an Improved Familiar.

 

[Lamoni]

Yeah, but it would be kind of odd if a cohort familiar ends up being more potent than an Improved Familiar.

Maybe I am missing something... but didn't he say that to have a cohort familiar you needed the improved familiar feat AND the leadership feat? If you have to spend an additional feat I think it would be normal for it to be more potent rather than being odd.

 

[Pbartender]

To play the Devil's advocate for a bit...

Actually, in Mongoose Publishing's Familiars books, they do talk about imbuing your familiar with charcter levels, up to 9 levels worth, as if they were adventurers themselves. And with the wide array of familiars they had on tap (from penguins to vampires and everything inbetween), it was a virutal plethora of choices. As far as the original question, I think taking a peak into that book might help the boy-o out. He can hold off on summoning a familiar at 1st level and do a summons at, say, 6th level and have a choice of a 6 HD creature/humanoid that may already have pre-existing levels... Just a thought

Sounds like a nifty book, assuming one of us can find it, is able to afford it, and is willing to purchase it. I'll have to take a look at the FLGS.

Maybe I am missing something... but didn't he say that to have a cohort familiar you needed the improved familiar feat AND the leadership feat? If you have to spend an additional feat I think it would be normal for it to be more potent rather than being odd.

I certainly don't see why you couldn't take only the Leadership feat, and apply it to a 'normal' familiar. More on that in a bit...

In general, most things that can be familiars don't advance by character class, so it seems a losing proposition to try to combine the two, to me. Now, if you just want a tougher familiar, fine. But a familiar that will gain levels ? Uhm... that sounds broken, to me.

Why can't they advance as characters class? A familiar is not a normal animal by any means...

By 6th level, the minimum character level required to take the Leadership feat, a Familiar could have an Intelligence score as high as 8, and no lower than 6. By any account that's a creature intelligent enough to earn levels in a class, even if they won't get many skill points from it.

Of, course, if you have a 'normal' animal familiar, there will be certain limitations... Many skills (Diplomacy! Bluff!) and abilities (Bardic Music!) may be useless due to a lack of normal speech capabilities, and many skills (Disable Device! Open Locks!) and abilities (Shield and Weapon Proficiencies!) will be useless due to a lack of opposable thumbs.

Not to mention that the +2 ECL penalty in combination with the "Cohort Max Level = Player Current Level - 2" limit severely impares the advancement of a Familiar Cohort.

Is there really a problem with a 6th level Wizard using up a precious feat to take Leadership and gain a Falcon familiar with only 2 levels of Fighter (Hover, Flyby Attack & Mobility feats to make those shared touch spells useful!)?

Yeah, but it would be kind of odd if a cohort familiar ends up being more potent than an Improved Familiar.

See above. I don't think they'd be THAT much more powerful... And if it's that much of a problem, the ECL penalty could always be raised.