Cohort suggestions in RttToEE?

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, you're short a true fighter and a true wizard. However, the druid and animal companion are filling in those respective roles and the monk has taken over the tank role.

So, you've a number of possibilities.
1. Singleminded fighter type. Pal 4/Ftr 6, Pal 10, Ftr 10, Bbn 10, Ex Bbn 2/Ftr 4/Pal 4, Ftr 4/Pal 4/Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior) 1/Knight of the Middle Circle (DotF) 1, or anything remotely similar would be one clear possibility.

2. Single classed wizard type. Wiz 10, Sor 10, Wiz 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4, Wiz 5/Elemental Savant 5, Sor 6/Candlecaster 2/Mage of the Arcane Order 2, or any similar combination would work in this role.

3. Try to combine the roles. Ftr 1/Wiz 6/Spellsword 3 (Complete Warrior version) with Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior), Expert Tactician (Song and Silence), Blink, Polymorph, Greater Invis, etc might be able to effectively fill both roles. An Elf Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) 3/Wizard 4/Bladesinger 3 (Complete Warrior Version) might work. The closes you'd be likely to get to a full-time wizard under this strategy would be: Ftr 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Spellsword 1 (advancing as Eldritch Knight).

However, keep in mind that it's easier for the straight up fighter or wizard to perform above his level than for the character that attempts to do both so you'd have to be very careful to optimize the fighter/wizard if you decided to go that route.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

He doesn't meet the prerequisite (counting as a natural weapon for some purposes is not the same as having one). There's a reason why this is in the monster section and not in the players handbook.

no, i'm sorry but you're incorrect.

Counting as a natrual weapon is the same as having one, otherwise there wouldnt be any point in counting as one.

Thus he does meet the pre-requisit. If in your game you dont feel comfortable letting the player take something from the MM then thats one thing. But the way I see it, he's breaking no rule.

 

[Diirk]

no, i'm sorry but you're incorrect.

Counting as a natrual weapon is the same as having one, otherwise there wouldnt be any point in counting as one.

Thus he does meet the pre-requisit. If in your game you dont feel comfortable letting the player take something from the MM then thats one thing. But the way I see it, he's breaking no rule.

In that case I suggest he might try enchanting himself as a +1 holy weapon seeing as he counts as a manufactured weapon as well. And also taking multiattack to lesson those penalties for secondary attacks seeing as by your reasoning he'd have 3 natural attacks (with flurry anyway) etc.

The purpose of counting a natural weapon is for things like greater magic fang, and other enhancing spells and effects.

Can you imagine nightmares like a druid 8/monk 1 in brown bear shape with Claw +11/Claw +11/Claw +6/Claw +6/Bite +6 (iterative attacks for 1 claw for being 'manufactured', flurry for being 'unarmed' and the secondary natural attacks) ?

 

[BrooklynKnight]

Flurry is not 3 seprate attacks, its a single action that grants "3 attacks".

 

[Diirk]

Flurry is not 3 seprate attacks, its a single action that grants "3 attacks".

Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.

We must be thinking of different flurries

 

[jaults]

Thanks for not getting embroiled in the natural weapon debate, and giving me something I can work with. As I mentioned, we're not too concened with our lack of a tank. I have not had the opportunity to try out any of the classes you mention in these two points.

2. Single classed wizard type. Wiz 10, Sor 10, Wiz 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4, Wiz 5/Elemental Savant 5, Sor 6/Candlecaster 2/Mage of the Arcane Order 2, or any similar combination would work in this role.

Mage of the Arcane Order and Elemental Savant both look interesting to me. Anyone have anything to add about these classes? I think an Elemental Savant (Cold) would be interesting, and would fit into our story well. How would the Sor/Candle Caster/MotAO work? What is the advantage of taking the Candle Caster levels?

3. Try to combine the roles. Ftr 1/Wiz 6/Spellsword 3 (Complete Warrior version) with Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior), Expert Tactician (Song and Silence), Blink, Polymorph, Greater Invis, etc might be able to effectively fill both roles. An Elf Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) 3/Wizard 4/Bladesinger 3 (Complete Warrior Version) might work. The closes you'd be likely to get to a full-time wizard under this strategy would be: Ftr 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Spellsword 1 (advancing as Eldritch Knight).

The Ftr/Wiz/EK/Spellsword build would only be casting as an 8th level caster, right? We could really use access to Teleport, so I don't know if that is a build that I will focus on.

Thanks,
Jason

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Thanks for not getting embroiled in the natural weapon debate, and giving me something I can work with. As I mentioned, we're not too concened with our lack of a tank.

You're welcome. If you're not concerned about the lack of a tank (and realistically, your cleric could still step up and fill gaps in the tank role by selecting Divine Power and Righteous Might), then I'd go for the wizard types.

I have not had the opportunity to try out any of the classes you mention in these two points.Mage of the Arcane Order and Elemental Savant both look interesting to me. Anyone have anything to add about these classes?

Elemental Savant is most useful for role playing interest and cranking spell DCs and Spell Penetration (elemental penetration abilities help here). Both of those would be useful for a cohort blaster mage who probably has less access to int/cha boosting items, may have a lower spellcasting stat, and whose spells are lower level than a PC blaster mage's spells would be.

Mage of the Arcane Order is the ultimate in versatility. It enables you to have any spell you need with a little bit of time to prep.

I think an Elemental Savant (Cold) would be interesting, and would fit into our story well. How would the Sor/Candle Caster/MotAO work? What is the advantage of taking the Candle Caster levels?

My mistake. You don't need Candlecaster to get Mage of the Arcane Order levels as a sorceror. However, due to the Knowledge: Planes requirement, you do need some class with Knowledge: Any in order to get Elemental Savant before very high levels as a sorceror. Candle Caster is relatively easy to get into, has all knowledge skills, and has full spellcasting progression. A few interesting item creation abilities don't hurt either. So, it's a good option for making a Sorceror/Elemental Savant.

The Ftr/Wiz/EK/Spellsword build would only be casting as an 8th level caster, right? We could really use access to Teleport, so I don't know if that is a build that I will focus on.

Yeah, the character would only cast as an 8th level caster. In my Living Greyhawk experience, that was enough for an APL 10 party but we didn't need teleport and he had more caster levels before playing in a 12th level party--which is where this cohort would be. I would only focus on the fighter/wizard type build if you don't desperately need arcane firepower and could use some help on the front line. If front line is superfluous and firepower isn't, then go for the full caster level guys.

 

[jaults]

You're welcome. If you're not concerned about the lack of a tank (and realistically, your cleric could still step up and fill gaps in the tank role by selecting Divine Power and Righteous Might), then I'd go for the wizard types.

Yeah, I have prepared those in the past, but it seems like it takes too long to "tank" my cleric up. I want to make sure I drop Prayer and Recitation first, since that affects both the entire party and also the bad guys. I also feel like a better use of my time is using Dispel Magic on the buffed enemies.

Elemental Savant is most useful for role playing interest and cranking spell DCs and Spell Penetration (elemental penetration abilities help here). Both of those would be useful for a cohort blaster mage who probably has less access to int/cha boosting items, may have a lower spellcasting stat, and whose spells are lower level than a PC blaster mage's spells would be.

This is kinda what I was thinking for a Cold/Water Savant (which I think would be a good complement to my Earth cleric).

Durand Frostborn
When he was but a youngster, Durand got seperated from his clan of high mountain dwelling dwarfs, and nearly froze to death. His left arm was severely damaged by the cold, and never fully recovered. Since he was not able to take part in the more physical activities as practiced by his brethern, he instead studied the mystical arts, focusing his energies on those that had so injured him.

Durand is short and heavyset (one might even say slightly overweight), even for a dwarf. He claims that since the day he was lost in the snow, he has never been able to truly get warm. The extra weight he has put on is just extra insulation, according to him... His love for rich foods certainly doesn't help, of course.
Despite his weight, he is still fairly light on his feet. His left arm is small and withered. His manual dexterity with his left hand was mostly unaffected, but he cannot lift more than 10 or 12 pounds.

Dwarf Evoker 5/Elemental Savant (Cold/Water) 5 - Prohibited schools of Enchantment and Illusion

Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 16 (14 +2 racial)
Int: 20 (17 +1 4th level + 2 Headband of Intellect)
Wis: 14 (13 +1 8th level)
Cha: 9 (11 -2 racial)

Feats: Empower Spell, Energy Substitution (Cold), Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (Evocation), Craft Something (Wand maybe?)
Alternately, he could drop either Empower or Craft, and get Greater Spell Focus for another +1 to his save DCs.

Primary spells: Freezing (Scorching) Ray, Sleet Storm, Coldball, Haste, Ice Storm, Wall of Ice, Polymorph, Cone of Cold, Teleport, Telepathic Bond, Empowered Freezing Ray

His cold evocation save DCs will be 18 + spell level [10 + 5 (Int) + 1 (Spell Focus) + 2 (Elemental Focus)]. We also use Monte's Book of Eldritch Might, which has a spell called Greater Magical Flow Enhancement. It is a 4th level spell that increases the save DC by 2 for 10 minutes at the cost of 250 gp of diamond dust. That would bump his DCs up to 20 + spell level, which is respectable, I think.

Whadda think?

Thanks for your help,
Jason

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Looks pretty good. However, I think I'd ditch the craft feat and simply have him assist a PC in crafting by casting the spells that the PC can't. Instead, I'd get him greater spell penetration. That way, he'll have the same chance of beating SR as a PC with spell penetration.

Oh, and I don't know what cold ball is (cold substituted fireball maybe) but I'd take a serious look at Tome and Blood's Icy Burst instead. It has a larger area of effect (30' burst instead of 20' spread) and more reliable damage ((1d4cold+1 bludgeoning)/level) in exchange for slightly shorter range than fireball (medium)

Also, something to think about: if you're focussing on Scorching Ray variants, you might want to ditch spell focus for point blank and precise shot. Scorching ray doesn't have a save so spell penetration doesn't help but Precise Shot can be important. (Of course, at 10th level, you may be able to hit reliably with touch attacks without Precise Shot--look at the foes you generally face and make the call).

It's too bad Enchantment is a prohibited school--otherwise you could get Heroism which really helps with those touch attacks.

This is kinda what I was thinking for a Cold/Water Savant (which I think would be a good complement to my Earth cleric).

Durand Frostborn
When he was but a youngster, Durand got seperated from his clan of high mountain dwelling dwarfs, and nearly froze to death. His left arm was severely damaged by the cold, and never fully recovered. Since he was not able to take part in the more physical activities as practiced by his brethern, he instead studied the mystical arts, focusing his energies on those that had so injured him.

Durand is short and heavyset (one might even say slightly overweight), even for a dwarf. He claims that since the day he was lost in the snow, he has never been able to truly get warm. The extra weight he has put on is just extra insulation, according to him... His love for rich foods certainly doesn't help, of course.
Despite his weight, he is still fairly light on his feet. His left arm is small and withered. His manual dexterity with his left hand was mostly unaffected, but he cannot lift more than 10 or 12 pounds.

Dwarf Evoker 5/Elemental Savant (Cold/Water) 5 - Prohibited schools of Enchantment and Illusion

Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 16 (14 +2 racial)
Int: 20 (17 +1 4th level + 2 Headband of Intellect)
Wis: 14 (13 +1 8th level)
Cha: 9 (11 -2 racial)

Feats: Empower Spell, Energy Substitution (Cold), Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (Evocation), Craft Something (Wand maybe?)
Alternately, he could drop either Empower or Craft, and get Greater Spell Focus for another +1 to his save DCs.

Primary spells: Freezing (Scorching) Ray, Sleet Storm, Coldball, Haste, Ice Storm, Wall of Ice, Polymorph, Cone of Cold, Teleport, Telepathic Bond, Empowered Freezing Ray

His cold evocation save DCs will be 18 + spell level [10 + 5 (Int) + 1 (Spell Focus) + 2 (Elemental Focus)]. We also use Monte's Book of Eldritch Might, which has a spell called Greater Magical Flow Enhancement. It is a 4th level spell that increases the save DC by 2 for 10 minutes at the cost of 250 gp of diamond dust. That would bump his DCs up to 20 + spell level, which is respectable, I think.

Whadda think?

Thanks for your help,
Jason

 

[jaults]

Looks pretty good. However, I think I'd ditch the craft feat and simply have him assist a PC in crafting by casting the spells that the PC can't. Instead, I'd get him greater spell penetration. That way, he'll have the same chance of beating SR as a PC with spell penetration.

Yeah, well... none of the PCs have any crafting feats. However, after some thought, we are probably approaching the end of this campaign. RttToEE is from levels 4-14, and we just leveled to 12. I don't expect to play this character beyond the end of this adventure. So it probably won't matter.

Oh, and I don't know what cold ball is (cold substituted fireball maybe) but I'd take a serious look at Tome and Blood's Icy Burst instead. It has a larger area of effect (30' burst instead of 20' spread) and more reliable damage ((1d4cold+1 bludgeoning)/level) in exchange for slightly shorter range than fireball (medium)

Thanks for the heads up about that spell. It sounds like a good one. I also like the Mark of spells from BoEM.

Also, something to think about : if you're focussing on Scorching Ray variants, you might want to ditch spell focus for point blank and precise shot. Scorching ray doesn't have a save so spell penetration doesn't help but Precise Shot can be important. (Of course, at 10th level, you may be able to hit reliably with touch attacks without Precise Shot--look at the foes you generally face and make the call).

Hmmm... I don't know. I only have 5 feat slots to spend. I obviously can't give up Empower Spell or Energy Substitution (Cold). That leaves Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Spell Focus (Evocation). They all seem like more effective feats than spending two feats on Ray/Touch spells.
I think there are more spells that have saves than there are touch/ray spells that don't. Burning Hands, Fireball, Icy Burst, Lightning Bolt, Cone of Cold and Ice Storm vs Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Icebolt (from BoEM) and Enervation. Hmmm... maybe the two sides are more balanced than I thought. Dang, now I don't know where to focus...
I guess that even if the bad guys make their saves, they usually take half damage, whereas if I miss with a touch attack, I miss completely. However, I am betting I will only have to hit around touch AC 12-15. He will have +7 (BAB +4 Dex +3) unbuffed, which gives him anywhere from a 60%-75% to hit, right?

It's too bad Enchantment is a prohibited school--otherwise you could get Heroism which really helps with those touch attacks.

Yeah... but the cleric and druid do a lot of buffing. Cat's Grace, Recitation and Bless gives him another +6 to hit or so, which means he will often only miss on a 1-3.
I think I have convinced myself that I am better off boosting my save DCs rather than my to hit with my ranged touch spells.
Other suggestions?

Thanks for all your help,
Jason