Collaborative Cave!

[der_kluge]

Hmm...I'd like to see playtesting results before making further changes. If it ends up being nigh-impossible, I'll just drop the Sor levels, turning it into more of a speedbump encounter.

Still, the ambush part will be fun.

Well, you said yourself, if it grabs a spellcaster, death is probably imminent in 1-2 rounds. That's a pretty serious encounter.

But some playtesting should tell us for certain. Admittedly, it is quite the oddity, and this specimen is truly *epic* among choker-kind.

 

[Conaill]

A few more notes on the choker, now that I've had more time to look at it...

- The choker should definitely *not* be allowed to cast two spells at this CR. Having the capability to do spell+attack or two attacks is already plenty nasty enough. I'd easily add +2 CR for this ability alone.
- Can't "take 20" on Hide spells. Sorry, he'll have to settle for a "mere" DC 30 Hide check. (Not sure where you got the extra 6 to get a DC 46.)
- Keep in mind that the choker does not have Still Spell. So any buffing spells will have to be cast well ahead of time, or may be overheard by the approaching party.
- How did you wind up with a Cha of 14? Even with elite array, size increase and four stat increases, the stats don't seem to add up. By my calculation, he seems to have 9 points of stats too many.
- Keep in mind that this choker is significantly dumber than your average ettercap or otyugh. I doubt it would do more than one buffing spell, unless it felt seriosuly threathened. Not to mentioned being able to remember 14 separate spells with an Int of 4. I'd be seriously tempted to raise its Int to 6 at least, to get a more plausible build...

 

[Tonguez]

I'll take 5, its small enough to handle for now and I'll leave someone else to do 12 (the size of it suggest it needs something special - especially with that pool of water in it.

I'm thinking of having cavern 5 have a natural stairway structure (the map suggests such) and its roof be open to the sky before descending again to cavern 12. ie a freak high point in a deep cave - which will allow me to add in some 'different' ecology.

Whats happening in Cavern 11? that might have a bearing (or not)

 

[Conaill]

An idea for area 12:

How about a black pudding masquerading as (or simply hiding in) a pool of water, cutting off the exit for a small band of kobolds/goblins (let's just call them koblins for now) holed up on the platform? If they stay far enough back, the pudding doesn't notice them, but they're too outclassed to leave. They've been stuck there for weeks now, living off their Clr5's Create Food & Water and the occasional party member - waiting for the ooze to go back to where it came from elsewhere in the cave complex.

The ooze will wait until the PCs are alongside the pool to attack. The koblins intend to wait until the ooze attacks them, then try slip out along the other side of the pool - (probably putting them in conflict with the PCs rearguard).

Add in one young but smart koblin who wants to join forces with the PC's rather than simply feed them to the ooze as bait. (He was probably next on the menu if the koblins didn't get of out there soon...)

 

[Tonguez]

That works well - I was going to suggest that Cavern 5 had an opening to the outside down which creatures routinely fell (usually to their demise). The Pudding could be such a creature that survived the fall and happened to find a food supply in Cavern 12...

 

[Elephant]

A few more notes on the choker, now that I've had more time to look at it...

- The choker should definitely *not* be allowed to cast two spells at this CR. Having the capability to do spell+attack or two attacks is already plenty nasty enough. I'd easily add +2 CR for this ability alone.

A standard action is a standard action. It's a questionable ability, but I didn't make it up.

- Can't "take 20" on Hide spells. Sorry, he'll have to settle for a "mere" DC 30 Hide check. (Not sure where you got the extra 6 to get a DC 46.)

Fixed. I didn't keep the entire entry consistent between edits; he originally had a higher Hide modifier.

- Keep in mind that the choker does not have Still Spell. So any buffing spells will have to be cast well ahead of time, or may be overheard by the approaching party.

1. Still Spell is irrelevant. Do you mean Silent Spell?
2. That's why he starts casting buffs when he hears combat from Room 6; the clamor of battle masks his verbal components.

- How did you wind up with a Cha of 14? Even with elite array, size increase and four stat increases, the stats don't seem to add up. By my calculation, he seems to have 9 points of stats too many.

Cha 15-4 = 11, then 3 increases (HD 4, 8, and 12) to get to 14. I checked and re-checked his stats three times.

- Keep in mind that this choker is significantly dumber than your average ettercap or otyugh. I doubt it would do more than one buffing spell, unless it felt seriosuly threathened. Not to mentioned being able to remember 14 separate spells with an Int of 4. I'd be seriously tempted to raise its Int to 6 at least, to get a more plausible build...

Is the encounter supposed to be built on D&D rules or your house rules? Sorcerers aren't dependent on Int for their spells.

The choker doesn't think about Mage Armor, Shield, Bull's Strength, or Cat's Grace. He thinks about "Safe, safer. Stronger, faster." You don't need to be a supergenius to instinctively strengthen your abilities when hunting.

 

[Conaill]

A standard action is a standard action. It's a questionable ability, but I didn't make it up.

True, but it was never intended to mix with class features. That's why the 3.0 Haste was one of the first things to go in the 3.5 revision as well - just way too open to abuse.

Keep in mind that the CR calculation formulas are not "rules" within which everything is fair game for the DM. They're merely guidelines to help the DM assign a fair CR to the creature. In this case, it's clear that we're dealing with a highly unusual combination of abilities which the standard CR guidelines may not cover. In my opinion, the combination of spellcasting and two standard actions per round would far exceed the "by the book" CR of this creature.

1. Still Spell is irrelevant. Do you mean Silent Spell?

Blagh! Of course.

Cha 15-4 = 11, then 3 increases (HD 4, 8, and 12) to get to 14. I checked and re-checked his stats three times.

Gah - I keep saying "elite array", but then I forget to count them in. Nevermind, I'm a doofus... There's the 9 stat points I was missing.

 

[Land Outcast]

An idea for area 12:

The area is used as living quarters for a Lizardfolk Shaman and his 2 close adepts (the third was eaten by the dragon). He came with the excuse of having seen the dragon as an unknowing agent of his god/ess(?) in visions, and that he was fated to serve him. (Actually he didn't end up serving often except through magical healing... but see Note2)

After completly ignoring the Lizard's racketing and chewing on one of his subordinates, the Madman Shaman yelled "Consume me body if is your wish!"; the dragon felt not so much as curious as throughly amused about these words, his ego was strongly pumped up: he just liked being venerated... even if it was by some lousy lizardfolk.

Of course there was also some material convenience in not eating the "rightful blessed servant", availability of magical healing is much appreciated by anyone. So he was allowed to take up residence with his two -remaining- close subordinates. Quite a bit of time has passed, but the shaman still venerates the dragon as a living aspect of his god's will.

Will yell at anyone coming in :"You coming to venerate the Great One's will?!!"

Note: The Dragon = Either "mommy" or the strongest of those here, depending on wether "mommy" ends up existing or not.

Note2: If the Dragon has some Lizardfolk servants outside the cave, this is their spiritual leader. If not, well... the dragon wasted a opportunity of getting free followers.

Note3: Actually this could work for an area other than 12

Note4: Shaman (Lizardfolk Middle Aged Clr 7, CR 7), Adepts (Lizardfolk Adpt 5/Rng 1, CR 5)... What do you think, a CR 7 and 2 CRs 5 fit well in this pseudo-Communitary-Dungeon?

 

[Elephant]

True, but it was never intended to mix with class features. That's why the 3.0 Haste was one of the first things to go in the 3.5 revision as well - just way too open to abuse.

Keep in mind that the CR calculation formulas are not "rules" within which everything is fair game for the DM. They're merely guidelines to help the DM assign a fair CR to the creature. In this case, it's clear that we're dealing with a highly unusual combination of abilities which the standard CR guidelines may not cover. In my opinion, the combination of spellcasting and two standard actions per round would far exceed the "by the book" CR of this creature.

Fair. I'd like to see it playtested by 3-4 8th level parties, though. If CR 10 is a gross underestimate of the challenge this encounter provides - such that it causes TPKs to the playtesters, then the problem isn't the CR listed for the encounter - the problem is that I made too strong of a choker.

 

[Conaill]

The area is used as living quarters for a Lizardfolk Shaman and his 2 close adepts (the third was eaten by the dragon). He came with the excuse of having seen the dragon as an unknowing agent of his god/ess(?) in visions, and that he was fated to serve him. (Actually he didn't end up serving often except through magical healing... but see Note2)

Sounds like I have a rival for room #12.

Any votes on which encounter people like better?